Mastering Digital Presence: Jason Barnard on Future-Proofing Your Brand in an AI-Driven World

Business Growth Talks is a podcast created and hosted by Mark Hayward, focusing on strategies for growing businesses in their growth stage. The show features interviews with successful entrepreneurs and business owners who discuss scaling processes, market expansion, financial management, human resource development, and customer retention. In a featured episode, Jason Barnard, founder and CEO of Kalicube, shares his extensive experience in digital marketing, emphasizing the importance of mastering digital brand presence and future-proofing search strategies. Barnard’s multifaceted career, from musician to digital marketing expert, provides unique insights into business growth and online management.

Key Takeaways:
1. Focus on Growth Stage Strategies: The podcast provides actionable advice on scaling processes, market expansion, financial management, human resource development, and customer retention, specifically tailored for businesses in their growth stage.

2. Jason Barnard’s Expertise: Jason Barnard, known as the Brand SERP Guy, shares his expertise in digital marketing and the importance of creating a compelling and authoritative brand narrative to dominate search engine results.

3. Career Journey and Insights: Barnard’s diverse background, including being a musician, screenwriter, and cartooc character voice actor, illustrates the value of creative and analytical strengths in business success.

4. Kalicube’s Unique Approach: Kalicube uses extensive data points to help clients improve their digital presence, educating search engines to accurately represent their brand and ensuring they stand out in search results.

5. Self-Determination in the AI World: Barnard emphasizes the significance of controlling one’s online identity in the AI-driven landscape, providing tools and strategies for personal and corporate branding that align with search engine algorithms.

Listen here: Mastering Digital Presence: Jason Barnard on Future-Proofing Your Brand in an AI-Driven World

Published by Business Growth Talks. July 15, 2024. Host: Mark Hayward. Guest: Jason Barnard, Founder and CEO at Kalicube.

Jason Barnard on Digital Success and Business Growth

Jason Barnard [00:00:01]: My mother left when I was very small, leaving me with my sisters to be brought up by my father in a deserted farmhouse in the middle of the Yorkshire Moors. Proud that I’ve always created, I’ve always been productive. I’ve always created and it’s always been positive for the world. So punk folk, whether you like it or not, was positive because it gave people a good feeling, a good time. And the interesting thing is I’ve invested $30,000 in my own education just in how to be a better CEO with these three people.

Mark Hayward [00:00:47]: Welcome to Business Growth Talks, the podcast where we delve deep into strategies for achieving business success. I’m your host and today, we’re thrilled to have Jason Barnard as our guest. Jason is the founder and CEO of Kalicube, a pioneering Digital Marketing agency and software company. Known as The Brand SERP Guy, Jason has unparalleled expertise in mastering digital brand presence. With over two decades of experience, he helps businesses future-proof their digital search strategies, ensuring that there’s not only appearing predominantly on Google, but also having a compelling and authoritative brand narrative. Beyond his Digital Marketing prowess, Jason has an eclectic background, including being a professional musician, songwriter, screenwriter and even a cartoon character voice actor. His multifaceted career reflects his creative and analytical strengths, making him a unique and inspiring figure in the business world. Today, he’ll share his invaluable insights on business and how they can be effectively managed online and harness the power of search engines to growth and success.

Mark Hayward [00:01:52]: Let’s deep dive into this enlightening conversation with Jason. Hello, Jason, how are you today?

Jason Barnard [00:01:58]: I’m absolutely fine, thank you very much. It’s delightful to be here, Mark.

Business Mindset and Finding Clarity

Mark Hayward [00:02:02]: Thank you so much for joining me today. We are going to go deep into your domain. I think it’s an incredibly important area and I think we’re going to have a great conversation. So I’m very much looking forward to it. The first question I ask all of my guests is what does a business mindset mean to you?

Jason Barnard [00:02:20]: I think what I find is that it’s a very strong desire for independently moving forwards in one’s career. So that maybe the first thing to think about is saying my business mindset is I don’t want a boss. I want my own company. I want to run it the way I want to run it and I’m going to move this forwards through time. Then you have the question of what am I going to do? So part of the business mindset is having a clearly-defined product or service or business strategy. That’s something we’ve struggled with at Kalicube and it’s made Kalicube the hardest company for me to grow of the three that I’ve had. This is my third company and it’s been the most difficult to grow because it was the least well defined by me.

Jason Barnard’s Entrepreneurial Journey

Mark Hayward [00:03:13]: So let’s just talk about the independent side of it. So did you not really enjoy bosses? Because I didn’t really enjoy bosses. I didn’t realize for a long time, so my audience know I’ve been. I was in corporate for 14 years and I had good bosses. I had also difficult bosses to deal with. But it wasn’t until maybe halfway through the journey, halfway through that period that I decided that I wanted something different and I wanted to have a little bit more independence and a little bit more direct in my own ship as such.

Mark Hayward [00:03:48]: What was your driving factor of wanting to run your own business?

Jason Barnard [00:03:53]: I didn’t like my teachers at school.

Mark Hayward [00:03:56]: So you go all the way back to your teachers, right.

Jason Barnard [00:03:58]: You’ve got 14 years of experience. I haven’t even got 14 days of experience as a member of a team in a company. I’ve never had a real job. I’ve never had a job where I was employed full time to do anything by a boss. So I moved from my degree in Statistical Analysis and Economics straight into a music group called The Barking Dogs, playing punk folk music. Nobody wanted to sign us as a music artist or for tours, so I just created my own company and I went out and did it myself. That was in 1991 after playing in the street for two years. And so that was it.

Jason Barnard [00:04:36]: Don’t know what it’s like to have a boss.

From Punk to Punk Folk

Mark Hayward [00:04:39]: That’s interesting. Yeah. And were you into independent music? Were you into indie music?

Jason Barnard [00:04:44]: I was a punk when I was at school.

Mark Hayward [00:04:47]: But punk, what was it? Punk folk?

Jason Barnard [00:04:49]: Yeah.

Mark Hayward [00:04:51]: So that’s almost a disagreement in itself that you’ve got punk folk. Please explain a little bit more.

Jason Barnard [00:04:58]: Well, it explained a little bit is that the punk scene in the UK was very strong and I moved to France. And in France, there were groups like the Mano Negra and the Les Négresses Vertes who created a whole genre of music, which was taking folk musicians. Musicians, sorry, folk instruments, double bass in my case, mandolin, violin, accordion, and playing folk music, very punk or punk music, very folk. And it’s not punk directly, but the Ace of Spades by Motörhead. We played a folk punk version of that with violin, mandolin, drums and double bass. And it sounds incredibly huge. Probably not as huge as Lemmy of Motörhead, but it gives it a completely new angle. And so punk folk makes sense.

Jason Barnard [00:05:47]: And it was a huge movement in France in the 1980s and 1990s.

The Influence of Isolation and Yorkshire 

Mark Hayward [00:05:52]: That’s amazing. Thank you for telling me about that. Tell me one thing about your upbringing, which reflects on who you are today.

Jason Barnard [00:06:01]: My mother left when I was very small, leaving me with my sisters to be brought up by my father in a deserted farmhouse in the middle of the Yorkshire Moors, 6 miles from the nearest town, and no friends. And that, I think, made me independent and very able to motivate myself day after day. So when you’re a lonely kid in the middle of nowhere, not only was it 6 miles away from era, it was a cul de sac. There was no, nothing beyond us, just the Yorkshire Moors. And that taught me to organise my own time, make my own entertainment, build my own games as a child, which I think has helped me enormously in building my own companies as an adult.

Mark Hayward [00:06:53]: So do you think that people are very proud Yorkshiremen? Are you a very proud Yorkshireman to have that part of your heritage and makes you as a person, or not so much?

Jason Barnard [00:07:06]: No, not at all. It was in Yorkshire, but it could have been anywhere. It was just the isolation. I think Yorkshire is not a place I would have chosen to be brought up in if I’d given the choice. I’m terribly bouncy, cheerful, full of fun and joy and enthusiasm, and Yorkshire doesn’t really vibe with that. But that might also be why it might be like the punk attitude, the counter attitude to what I was experiencing day in, day out. So maybe I can thank Yorkshire for the character I’ve got, because I was being a punk and I was doing the contrary to what was expected of me.

Early Career and Entrepreneurial Drive

Mark Hayward [00:07:48]: So in your early career, you were a musician and a screenwriter. Firstly, how did you get into those things? And secondly, has it helped your approach to Digital Marketing and entrepreneurship?

Jason Barnard [00:08:02]: Yes, it has helped enormously. The how did I get into it is in the first instance, I moved to Paris for love. That didn’t work out. Some friends of mine said, you want to join a band? I said, yes, I can play guitar and I can sing, because I’d been in a band in Liverpool, at university. They said, oh, we need a double bass player. You can only join the band if you play double bass. And I didn’t play double bass, so I went and bought a double bass and they gave me 30 days to learn it. In 30 days, I learned to play double bass well enough to get into a punk folk band, which is basically good enough to stand on stage smiling, looking like I know what I’m doing and hitting the thing in time with more or less the right notes at more or less the right moment.

How Belief Made Learning an Instrument Easy for Jason Barnard

Mark Hayward [00:08:46]: But that idea of learning an instrument in 30 days, that’s an incredibly difficult and challenging, and I understand you might not have been the best double bass player, but you’re able to still be in a band. And as you say, it looks like you knew what you were doing. But that whole learning experience of those 30 days, did you find them stressful in your early life, or was it something that you embraced and you wanted to just achieve it?

Jason Barnard [00:09:12]: That’s an interesting question. I didn’t find it stressful because I believed I could do it. Belief I can do it comes from a very naive enthusiasm and positive belief in, if I really try, I can get there. I can get there to be good enough. And I didn’t think I was going to be a great double bass player. It turns out I’m actually quite a good double bass player. But that’s luck rather than anything else. They could have given me the penny whistle or the harmonica, and I would have been a very second-rate penny whistle player for the rest of my life.

Jason Barnard [00:09:45]: But it turns out I was lucky. They asked me to play an instrument that I turned out to be very good at, so, piece of luck. But if they’d said the penny whistle, I would have learned the penny whistle in 30 days. Just wouldn’t have been my career. So that naive belief that I could do it made it not stressful.

The Role of Focus and Determination in Building Successful Businesses

Mark Hayward [00:10:06]: And how has that helped you with your entrepreneurial career, with your three businesses?

Jason Barnard [00:10:11]: I think it’s got me to the point where if I think it’s right, or if I know it’s right, I keep at it and keep at it and keep at it. And that’s one thing about my three companies, is all of each company does one thing, and it does one thing incredibly well. And whether or not people want that one thing isn’t something that predominates in my mind. I look at that one thing, I think in Kalicube’s case, we’ll come to that a moment. I know this is valuable. I know people will want it once they understand it, and I’m incredibly determined to get there. So that determination, naive enthusiasm, optimism, the belief that we’ll all work out in the end, maybe stems from that first success, maybe kicked off the rest of it. It worked once, so it will work every time.

Moving to France Shaped Jason Barnard’s Perspective and Visibility

Mark Hayward [00:11:03]: I love it. Before we get into Kalicube, I want to just ask about France. So the question was why did you move to France? But I understand you moved for love, which is, even though it didn’t work out, is a very inspiring idea. But how do you think the French mindset has influenced you as a person and in your business?

Jason Barnard [00:11:25]: Somebody once told me that at school, in France, generally speaking, teachers won’t get you to stand up in front of the class giving a presentation. They won’t have debates. They will have very much the teacher talking to the students, writing it down, repeating it. Approach to education. And that means that in France, public speaking, standing up on stages, is less natural than perhaps in other countries, which means there’s more opportunities available. Potentially, that’s something that’s given me more visibility, because I’ve had more opportunities. I’ve been able to seize them because there’s less competition.

Mark Hayward [00:12:02]: And are you fluent in French?

Jason Barnard [00:12:05]: Bilingual. To the point of which, when I’m speaking, if you ask me in the middle of a sentence, which language are you speaking? I would have to think about it.

Mark Hayward [00:12:13]: That’s amazing. You’re not converting from English to French every time you’re having a conversation. That’s amazing.

Jason Barnard [00:12:18]: Somebody once asked me, which language do I dream in? Answer is, it depends who’s in the dream.

From Children’s Media to Building Kalicube Through Creativity and SEO Innovation

Mark Hayward [00:12:24]: Right. Okay. Okay. Let’s get into Kalicube. So how does it start?

Jason Barnard [00:12:30]: So we’ve missed a spot is that I moved from music into children’s media.

Mark Hayward [00:12:35]: Oh, okay.

Jason Barnard [00:12:36]: Because after the band split up, which is that famous phrase that you get in films like Spinal Tap, the band split up and you don’t know what to do. And I decided to make children’s music because we in the band, we had long discussions. In the van, you’d do 100,000 kilometers a year. So that’d be like 150,000 hours sitting in a van with four people you don’t particularly like because you’ve got nothing better to do. And one of the conversations was, what’s your nightmare gig? And they would all say, playing in front of 100 small children. And I, being in a punk folk band, couldn’t say that I actually thought that sounded like a lot of fun, so I kept my mouth shut. But as soon as the band split up, I created music for children with the intention of playing that nightmare gig in front of a hundred small children. Tried to get the record deal.

Jason Barnard [00:13:26]: Once again, couldn’t get a record deal. And so I created a website and created a website to prove to the world that this pair of characters, Boowa and Kwala, who sang songs and generally had a good time with in a storybook, could be a success. And I learned Macromedia Flash at the time, created a website, created games, songs, music, activities for kids and stories, and the site grew to 1 billion page views in 2007. In just one year, 2007, 1 billion page views and 200 million of those came from visits from Google. So when that fell apart, when that group split up, I thought, my next career is going to be getting search results for corporations in Google. Basically repeat what I’d managed to do with these two cartoon characters for corporations. If I can get 200 million page views a year from Google for a children’s site, think what I can do for your company. And that into Kalicube.

Jason Barnard [00:14:36]: Sorry.

Mark Hayward [00:14:36]: And that was the inspiration. So it’s 2015. Why did you, is that the reason you decided that you wanted to move towards business, the business arena and using SEO and Google to be able to get people’s, what, more visibility for people’s businesses?

Rebranding and Overcoming Challenges

Jason Barnard [00:14:56]: Yeah, that was it. I switched from the children’s media company because my business partner was a real business person who took it as a business and I took it as this fun project. He took the company over, basically using the legal system to take it away from me, leaving me with nothing. The company still exists, it’s still profitable. My first company still exists and it’s still profitable for the person that I sold it to at the time. So I have now 66 years combined corporate experience, although I’m not in the other two companies. 66 years of companies that are actually making money and have been making money since day one. And the switch, though, from the children’s media company to Kalicube had a little hiccup in the middle because I was trying to sell my services to corporations.

Jason Barnard [00:15:49]: They would Google my name after a meeting and at the top, it would say, Jason Barnard is a cartoon blue dog called Boowa. And that would lose me sales. People would say, I’m not entrusting this guy, who’s a voiceover artist and a screenwriter for a cartoon blue dog. He is not going to be a great person to run my Digital Marketing strategy. So I then set about reeducating Google and saying, yes, I’m a screenwriter. Yes, I’m a cartoon blue dog. But the focus today is on Digital Marketing. So I got it to understand that I was the cartoon blue dog, but the focus is now on Digital Marketing.

Jason Barnard [00:16:27]: So now if you search it, it says, Jason Barnard, Digital Marketing, and it makes me look like a superstar digital marketer, entrepreneur. Whereas ten years ago, Google made me look like a superstar blue dog.

Transforming Online Presence and Creating a Unique Service for Clients

Mark Hayward [00:16:43]: So what are the components of the way that you’re able to, in essence, train Google to give the information, like, how do you do that for your clients? And how did you do it for yourself as well?

Jason Barnard [00:16:53]: Yeah, that’s exactly the question. What I did for myself, I then realized this is a product, this is a service that I can provide to others. And strangely, nobody else in the world does this. I can’t believe that 26 years after I started working on the Internet, 1998, that nobody else has explicitly gone into a service provision whereby they’re explicitly saying, we are going to reeducate the machine, or we’re going to educate the machine. What I needed to do was stand where my new audience is looking. So all of the information about me online was in MusicBrainz, in IMDb. Wikipedia talked about me as a musician and a cartoon maker. I was on ISNI and the national libraries of France, of the UK, and it was, this guy is a musician, sorry, an author and an actor and a screenwriter.

Jason Barnard [00:18:03]: So what I needed to do was then create the content on the platforms where my audience, my new audience, Digital Marketing, business people looking for digital marketers, where they were looking.

Key Steps to Re-Educate Google and Accelerate Your Transition from Entrepreneur to Corporate Leader

Mark Hayward [00:18:15]: So are you writing blogs? Are you contributing to Reddit? Are you adding in Wikipedia entry for your new. These are all the ways that. And how do you know now what those key elements are? If someone’s an entrepreneur that’s listening to this show that’s going through that transition into more corporate or more business focus from a previous career, what are the key points that you need to attack to change, to reeducate Google in another area for yourself?

Jason Barnard [00:18:47]: Right. Which is a lovely question, because I did exactly what you just said. I guessed. I thought, this is probably right. That’s probably right. That’s probably right. I’ll write for this media site. I’ll go to this webinar.

Jason Barnard [00:19:01]: Sorry, I’ll appear in this webinar, go to that conference, I’ll guest post for this one, that one, the other. I guessed. When I chose the podcast I would guess on, I guessed reasonably well. But what could have taken me a year, took me three years because I was guessing. So I then built Kalicube Pro, sorry, which is a SaaS platform that we have, we use internally, 2 billion data points. And it now tells me, based on 2 billion data points, exactly which ones to do in what order, which is how we can reduce that timeframe from three years to one year.

Strategies for Boosting Your Digital Presence

Mark Hayward [00:19:38]: And so are we talking about for a, so for myself, so I’ve got a podcast booking agency. Say I want to promote myself more in the podcast arena. So what would I look for? Online magazines? How would I know which ones to target? You’ve got these 2 billion data points, which is great. And I’m not asking you to tell me exactly, but you would think that maybe appearing on other podcasts would be good. Blogging about my podcast, and this is me guessing, but how do you then, how would you, give me some insight into how I would say I need to make myself more in the domain of podcasting?

Jason Barnard [00:20:21]: The first thing we do is we put your name in our platform. If it has the data, it will just spit the right data out, which is your digital footprint. It will say, this is what he’s got. And this is the order of priority in Google’s brain. So we use data from Google, but we’re using Google as a proxy for analyzing the audience. What Google is doing is basically replicating the real world as best it can. So Google is looking at every website it can, evaluating that and saying, this is what’s important. This is what is not important for Mark.

Prioritize the Right Platforms and Strategies

Mark Hayward [00:20:57]: But for Google, it’s all on search. This is my assumption, because I’m just thinking, if I Googled myself, when I Google my name, there’s actually a really annoying. There’s a professor somewhere in the University of Sussex, which pops up, but because I’m in the business arena, my podcast website will pop up. My LinkedIn will pop up very high because I’m very active on LinkedIn. A lot of posts, a lot of videos, a lot of contributions. So that always is right up at the top. But if I wanted to position myself more in the podcast industry, what insight would you be able to give me that, I would then go, okay, so these are the five first.

Mark Hayward [00:21:39]: The first five things that I need to prioritize.

Jason Barnard [00:21:41]: Okay. We analyze your peer group or your target group. So the analysis we do for you says, this is what’s important for this person. This is what Google sees as important for that person. So, as you say, LinkedIn comes up top because Google’s been watching you on LinkedIn, realizes that you’re doing a good job, that people like you on LinkedIn, that you’re focusing there. So it’s pushing it up to the top. If you were putting a lot of effort into Facebook and it didn’t come up relatively high, you would know that you’re addressing the wrong audience. Google doesn’t think that audience is appropriate for the way it’s classified you.

Jason Barnard [00:22:14]: So that’s point number one. And then we duplicate that across anything from 20 to 100 of your target peers. So you give us a list of ten people that you want to emulate. We will expand that list as much as we can. We push all of those into the system, and it then takes all the commonalities of those people to identify exactly which platforms are most important, which strategies are going to work for you. And then we organize them and we say, this is the order of priorities for the platforms. This is the order of priorities for what you need to do and when you need to do it. So rather than just going out and saying, I’m going to write blog posts, I’m going to go on lots of podcasts, I’ll create my own podcasts, I’ll write a book, and you try and do everything at once and do everything badly.

Jason Barnard [00:23:05]: We can tell you the right order. Start with guest posting, then do your book, then do guest podcasting, because the commonalities of your peer group or your target peer group are doing exactly that. And it’s not any individual competitor or peer, it’s the commonalities of a group, which means that what we’re doing is using Google’s data to identify the common behavioral patterns of a specific group of people that you want to belong to. And because you are then acting in the absolute typical way that Google expects, you will become the best representative of that peer group, which puts you to the top of the pile every time.

Shape Your Brand with Data and Influences

Mark Hayward [00:23:53]: And you actually said before we clicked record that you actually found my show through Kalicube. So what did you do to find me?

Jason Barnard [00:24:04]: I was initially a musician in Google’s brain. Then we, I pivoted to become a digital marketer. So I pivoted its understanding of me to become a digital marketer by standing in all the right places, doing all the right things, accompanied and working with the right people in my industry as an SEO or a digital marketer. Joost de Valk, Rand Fishkin, people like that who are very well known in the Digital Marketing space, Joe Pulizzi. Then I said, I want to be an entrepreneur. So I put all of the people that I want to emulate. I’ve got 1000 because I’m the boss and I’m allowed to put more in for me than I do for other people. And our algorithms go through it and they will pull out a list of all the places that I need to stand, all the podcasts, all the platforms I need to write for.

Jason Barnard [00:24:56]: All the platforms I need to get interviews on, whether I need to focus on LinkedIn or Facebook or Twitter. And we can then organize that in terms of what I’m willing to do, what I’m comfortable doing, what I’m already doing that we can amplify, and which strategies that I’m not even looking at yet, we need to promote, and which ones I’m currently doing are actually not the most important I can push back to next year. And it really is what somebody in our company calls shapeshifting everything that I’m doing, so that rather than throwing a big handful of spaghetti at the wall and hoping it sticks, I’m throwing it one strand at a time with superglue on it and I know it’s going to stick and I don’t freak out. That’s the good thing, is I don’t suddenly think I’m missing out, FOMO. I’m not thinking, oh, all these things I should be doing, because I know I don’t need to do them yet because it’s not yet time. And all of that is based on an analysis of my aspirational people.

Jason Barnard’s Development of an Algorithm to Analyze 2 Billion Data Points

Mark Hayward [00:25:54]: How did you, who did design the algorithm to look through these 2 billion data points?

Jason Barnard [00:26:01]: I did.

Mark Hayward [00:26:02]: You did? You designed it and did you code it as well?

Jason Barnard [00:26:06]: Yeah, whole thing.

Mark Hayward [00:26:09]: Wow. So you are, so you’re now fourth pivot. You’re also a software developer as well?

Jason Barnard [00:26:15]: I developed the software in 2014, 2015 when I created the company. Once I got the software to a point, which I thought it was useful, and since then, I’ve collected the 2 billion data points. So I’ve scaled up the data points as we’ve worked with more and more clients. Obviously, if you can see, we get one client, we then get 100 equivalents. We put system builds and builds. So every time we work on a client, we get more and more data. And outside of Google, we’ve got more data about what we call its Knowledge Graph, which is how Google understands the world, which we can come to. It’s quite geeky, but basically Google’s trying to emulate the world and it’s trying to understand the world in the way a human understands the world. And to do that, it uses a massive encyclopedia that’s just for the machine that it can use to understand what’s different things in the world.

Jason Barnard [00:27:11]: So it can understand you, it can understand me. It can understand Kalicube, it can understand your company. It will understand my town. It will understand the latest events in the Digital Marketing space or the entrepreneurial space. And to give you an idea of what it looks like, it’s like Wikipedia, but 10,000 times bigger. 54 billion entities and 1,500 billion facts in the Knowledge Graph. Google aims to understand the world perfectly using this Knowledge Graph. And the trick to getting into the Knowledge Graph is to educate the machine so it understands you, because if you don’t educate it about yourself, it will understand you the way it wants to understand, and you’ve lost self determination.

Aligning with Human Behavior Ensures Long-Term Success

Mark Hayward [00:28:01]: And this is absolutely fascinating. And so I’m just wondering, so if you’re looking for Google, and what about the algorithm changes when they make significant changes, it makes no difference. Or do you have to then adapt your algorithm to match Google’s changes?

Jason Barnard [00:28:22]: No, because Google is trying to emulate human behavior or represent human behavior. We are safe from Google updates because we are changing your behavior so that Google understands.

Mark Hayward [00:28:40]: Yeah.

Jason Barnard [00:28:41]: So as long as we’re being honest with the machine won’t punish us or won’t change its opinion of us with an algorithm update, it will simply get stronger. So the algorithm updates for us have just been better and better and better. Because although I’ve talked quite a lot about Google and the Knowledge Graph and the Knowledge Panel and getting to the top of Google, getting Google to recommend you all of that, an extension of what we’re actually doing, because the reason it understands you, the reason it recommends you, is because you’re walking the walk with your human audience, and it’s simply observing that and replicating it. So you have nothing to fear from the updates. In fact, the updates pretty much systematically benefit our clients.

Building a Successful Team

Mark Hayward [00:29:28]: So tell me about your team. Who is your team currently? Who do you, who’s part of your power team in your business?

Jason Barnard [00:29:35]: I have the most wonderful team in the world, 22 people in the Philippines. It’s a Philippine-based team. The heads of all the departments are in the Philippines, and we’ve built that up from one person three and a half years ago.

Mark Hayward [00:29:53]: Oh. So relatively, relatively recently, it’s been a change, a pivot in your business. And why have you chosen Filipinos? They’re great. We work with Filipinos as well, and I’ve got total respect for them. But why is, was it price conscious that you went to the Philippines? Was it skill set? Was it the standard they were, the language? Why did you move so many of your team to the Philippines?

Jason Barnard [00:30:16]: It’s actually been quite a journey. A friend of mine who has a team in the Philippines said, you need a team, why don’t you try the Philippines? And she described to me exactly how she was working with her team in the Philippines, and it corresponded to how I had been working with my team in the children’s media company in Mauritius, in the Indian Ocean. So Mauritius is part of Africa. And I could see the similarities between a team I had already managed and how it might work in the Philippines. So I started looking for people in the Philippines, but I was looking everywhere in the world. So we had somebody in Switzerland, we had somebody in Ukraine, we had somebody in France, somebody else in Slovenia. And all of the other people have now left. And that’s been an interesting experience for me, because the more the team became focused in the Philippines, the more I saw that actually the whole operation could be in the Philippines and that the people in the Philippines who were standing up and being leaders were very much up to the task.

Jason Barnard [00:31:29]: And at one point about a year ago, I identified the five people who I felt could manage the team, manage the company, and asked them, do you want to focus on the Philippines, or should we go international? It’s up to you. They said, we want to focus on the Philippines. Build up a Philippine team. 300 people is their ambition. To which I answer, if you’re willing to hire, fire, organize, get the HR department together, get the legal stuff all together, and make sure that we’re serving our clients to the same standard we always have been. Knock yourselves out, guys.

Mark Hayward [00:32:03]: And is that an agency that you’re using to hire those people, or are they coming through the network? Your five people that are looking after the running of the business are finding them and sourcing them?

Jason Barnard [00:32:13]: Yeah. No, we have an HR department who hire, train, onboard, fire, manage. So it’s a Kalicube team who work for Kalicube. We don’t go through agencies. It’s all now internal.

Building a Shared Vision

Mark Hayward [00:32:26]: And what does the next two to five years look for your business?

Jason Barnard [00:32:29]: I’m actually working on that. I was talking to a guy called Jason Hennessey, who talks about writing out your plan of what you expect to happen in the next three to five years, including the revenue, but also the company culture, how it all functions. And so you have a vision that you can then communicate not only to your team, but to the outside world. This is where we will be in five years time. And my vision isn’t actually just my vision, it’s Kalicube’s vision. I wouldn’t have said 300 people. My team said 300 people. And I believe my team, if they can do it, then that’s what we’ll do.

Jason Barnard [00:33:09]: So my vision for the future is very much based on the ambitions of my team rather than my own ambition.

Building a Marketing Strategy with the Kalicube Process

Mark Hayward [00:33:16]: And what about the marketing strategy? What’s the, obviously, you’re leveraging your own product to get you out there. What’s your views? What’s your views on Google Ads? What’s, good, bad? Not the right thing to do.

Jason Barnard [00:33:31]: It can be a great part of the strategy and we’ll certainly implement it. But our marketing department right now is completely built around my own process. I call the process the Kalicube Process. And it’s a process of marketing either for a corporation or for a person, based on our 2 billion data points, doing one thing at a time, doing it incredibly well, implementing it properly, making sure that you’re prioritizing correctly in terms of the different strategies you put in place, so you end up with a real, meaningful, multi channel, omni channel marketing strategy that all fits together incredibly neatly. And as we do it, we assign different projects to different people. We write SOPs Standard Operating Procedures. We implement them religiously throughout the company over time. Once we’ve got an SOP in place for Facebook, it just goes on and on.

Jason Barnard [00:34:28]: We improve it incrementally as we go through, but we create an SOP for us that we then turn into a vanilla SOP that we enrich with the data from our data set and provide to our clients. So when we say to a client, focus on LinkedIn, we give them an SOP based on our success, vanillaed, enriched with data that’s specific to them and we know it will work for them. So we’re creating our own product with our own marketing, which is delightful.

Building a Personal Brand That Dominates Search and Research

Mark Hayward [00:34:59]: Yeah, it’s an amazing model. And you’re looking to work with mainly corporates, did you say? Or would you work with solopreneurs?

Jason Barnard [00:35:08]: Anybody who has a need of building a huge personal brand. So in fact, not even a huge personal brand. Anybody who’s interested in controlling how the world perceives them and how the machines, ChatGPT, Perplexity. Google Gemini, Bing, Bing Copilot, the search engines and the assistive engines like ChatGPT is an assistive engine. How they represent you depends on how the world perceives you, or at least how they perceive the world to perceive you. And so the entire strategy is based on control. Understandability. How do your audience understand you? How do the machines understand you?

Jason Barnard [00:35:52]: Credibility. Do your audience believe you’re credible? Do the machines think you’re credible? Deliverability. Do you have the right content that demonstrates that you have the solution to your audience? And are you placing it in the right places for that audience at the right time, in the right format? The machines will then have, with that deliverability, the right content in the right format for the right people at the right time in the right places to then start to include you in their results more prominently. You become ubiquitous in the results. But at the end of the day, if you take a step back, you then become ubiquitous in two different phases or two different ideas. Research and search. So a lot of people talk to me about search engines and assistive engines. Research includes going to YouTube, going to Forbes, going to Search Engine Land, listening to this podcast. It’s part of that research process.

Jason Barnard [00:36:45]: And then people will go to Google or to Perplexity or to ChatGPT, and they’ll start to search around the topic or ask these machines about the topic. And my aim is that when they’re researching or searching, I keep popping up. This red shirt becomes omnipresent, becomes so visible and so regularly appearing that people think, he must be the guy to sort this out for me.

Comparing Data Across Search Platforms

Mark Hayward [00:37:10]: And what’s the advent of ChatGPT? I know ChatGPT are now linking with Copilot, and so they are getting into search. Although when I heard a podcast with Sam Altman, the CEO of OpenAI, he said, we are not, and he repeated, not building ChatGPT into the new Google. It’s not just going to be a search engine. So how are you adapting, changing your data points when it comes to ChatGPT, where versus the more traditional? How can something that’s only been around a short period of time, but the traditional Google methodology, how are you adapting it to ChatGPT?

Jason Barnard [00:37:52]: We track 150,000 corporations and people. Every month, we track a huge data set who aren’t our clients, and we track them in Google search, in ChatGPT, in Perplexity, in Google Gemini. So we have the data to understand how all of these machines understand and represent all these 150,000 entities. So the 2 billion data points, I often talk about Google, but it’s actually now, let’s say two and a half billion and half a billion are from ChatGPT. Perplexity and Google Gemini.

Mark Hayward [00:38:29]: Where do you see that?

Jason Barnard [00:38:30]: We’re well up on the game. Sorry, excuse me.

Staying Ahead in a Rapidly Evolving Industry

Mark Hayward [00:38:32]: Yeah, no, no, absolutely. Where do you see this technology going? Where do you see Kalicube going? Because I know you said about the next two to five years, but I’m just interested, like, in this type of industry, and you’ve obviously done incredibly well to incorporate ChatGPT relatively that quickly. It has been around a while, but how are you staying ahead of the technological advances?

Jason Barnard [00:38:57]: Well, we actually don’t need to, because our solution is so foundational and fundamental that the machines are never going to change. We’re never going to get left behind because the machines will not change their approach. The machines are now, all of these machines work the same way. So when ChatGPT came out, in Bing a year and a half ago, when ChatGPT came out a couple of years ago, we were already dominating, because they all work on understandability, credibility and deliverability. Do they understand who you are, who you serve and what you offer? Do they believe you’re a credible solution? Do they have the material, the information from you that allows them to cite you, to introduce you to the conversation? So if we come to ChatGPT or Bing, Bing Copilot or Google Gemini or Perplexity, I was talking to Fabrice Canel, who’s the product manager at Bing. Bing Copilot is designed for research. It’s designed to rebuild your funnel. So what happens is somebody will come into Copilot saying, I’m interested in Knowledge Panels, which is something we offer. We can build your Knowledge Panel on Google, Bing Copilot, ChatGPT will start to give you information about Knowledge Panels and a few follow up questions.

Jason Barnard [00:40:23]: Little by little, you’re going to start to understand a little bit more and it’s going to start citing names of people or companies that are specialized in this. And so it will generally cite me or Kalicube. If you then say, give me the names. So I’ve been introduced to the conversation at the top of the funnel when somebody’s researching awareness stage, let’s say in the funnel. Then we get down to making a choice consideration. Somebody’s going to say, who shall I start talking to? And it will list names out. The idea there is to become one of those three or four names they will mention. If you want a Knowledge Panel, talk to Jason Barnard, talk to Reputation X, talk to another company. And then you get to the bottom of the funnel, which is which one should I choose? And Fabrice Canel at Bing talks about the perfect click.

Jason Barnard [00:41:12]: The perfect click is that click, when somebody clicks on the link, goes to your website and buys. So they create the whole funnel, awareness, consideration, decision on their platform. You need to get that whole funnel right, which is what we do. Because if you think about the bottom of the funnel there, which one will it choose to tell you to click on? It will choose the one it understands the best. So understandability is that last click. Credibility is that consideration phase. And deliverability is the awareness phase. Do you have the content to deliver? Can they deliver your solution at the top of the funnel when you’re looking at awareness? Is it interesting, is it complete? Are you going to be regularly sighted? When they ask the machine to narrow it down to three providers, are you in the consideration phase in the brain of the machine? Once they say, make the decision, are you the best understood?

Jason Barnard [00:42:06]: Are you the one that the machine is most confident in? So we’ve built the funnel upside down. We start with the most important, the people at the bottom of the funnel.

How Personal Growth Shapes Effective Leadership

Mark Hayward [00:42:18]: We could go on this subject even more deeper, but unfortunately, we need to move on. But thank you, but no. I love this. I think this is an incredible service. I’ve never heard of it. I think it’s doing really great things. I’m going to do some research on it when I come off this interview, but I want to ask you a question about you as a leader. How have you evolved as a leader?

Jason Barnard [00:42:43]: Phenomenally. I’ve had training from three different coaches. Okay, coach number one, Mad Singers, Danish guy. Brilliant, super smart, pragmatic from top to bottom. He taught me to delegate, he taught me to build a team. All incredibly pragmatic. Then I got coaching from a guy called Stephen Lock. He’s from Yorkshire as well, who’s very philosophical.

Jason Barnard [00:43:11]: How can I engage with people? How can I build a better environment? How can I make people feel happy, comfortable, positive? And how can I make sure that the people on the Kalicube team bus are all of the same mind? Brilliant. Third one is a guy called Itamar, whose second name I’m afraid I’ve forgotten, who’s all about the psychology, my psychology. Oh, Itamar Marani. And what’s interesting about him is that he’s now taken, this is the final piece of training I’ve got. What in my own psychological makeup is preventing me from managing this company in the best possible way? What’s holding me back? What in my own mind is holding me back? And I don’t think the other two would work without. Sorry, I don’t think any of these would work without the others. The pragmatic from Mads, philosophical from Stephen, psychological from Itamar.

Jason Barnard [00:44:10]: That combination, for me, has completely transformed how I work. So I now know how to delegate, not only pragmatically, but emotionally. I know how to build a team, how to let the team get on with what they’re doing. Let go, truly let go, which is very difficult to do. You can say I’ve let go, but you’re constantly sticking your nose in. And I now have my team saying, get your nose out of our business. Leave the meeting. We don’t want you here because you’re not helping and I leave.

Jason Barnard [00:44:39]: And they say meetings go much better once you’ve gone, which isn’t the case for everything. It’s just in specific cases, they know when to tell me to leave, and I leave. And then the last one is Itamar. The one thing that I’ve taken away from this is in order to move forwards, think less about putting your foot down on the accelerator and think more about taking your foot off the brake.

Mark Hayward [00:45:00]: Oh, nice.

Jason Barnard [00:45:02]: And he’s right. It’s why am I not making a decision that I know is important and necessary generally because of my own emotional fear? If I can put the fear to one side, it doesn’t go away. But I put the fear to one side. I identify it as being fear that’s driving me to not make a decision I need to make in a timely manner. And I can make the decision much more easily because I recognize that my psychological makeup is holding it back and that the emotion is simply a thought and not a reality.

From Hands-On Management to Strategic Leadership and Industry Networking

Mark Hayward [00:45:33]: And so what are the day to day activities for Jason then? What does a normal day look like for you?

Jason Barnard [00:45:38]: A year ago, it was sticking my nose in everybody else’s business and constantly telling them how to do things better. And today, it’s not hearing from my team for days on end as they get on with what they’re supposed to be doing, managing their own teams. My job now is talking to team leads to make sure they’re comfortable, helping them identify with them what they need to do, and trying to help them or coach them to better manage in the way that I’ve learned to better manage. Identifying resources and resource allocation on a company wide level, not on a department level, networking with people in the industry, at conferences. I was in Estonia last week doing lots of networking with lots of people that is incredibly well invested time, getting my personal brand and the company brand out through things like this podcast, writing a book, making sure that we are present as much as possible at the top of the funnel in the awareness stage. We are credible in the credibility phase, and we are understood by both our audience and the machines in that decisionary phase. And the last part is collecting data from Google, ChatGPT, Bing, Perplexity, in our huge, enormous database that I built, and making the algorithm that I’ve written better for actually identifying even more precisely, exactly what needs to be done and when. And we also track Google’s Knowledge Graph, which is, as I said, Google’s understanding of the world.

Jason Barnard [00:47:09]: That’s giving us right now a lot of data that we never expected Google to release. And I’m not sure they know they’re releasing it. I think it’s a leak in their data, so I’m collecting a leak.

New Insights from Google Leak: Achieving 95% Accuracy with Exclusive Data

Mark Hayward [00:47:18]: Something came out last week, didn’t it? Something came out last week on the Google leak, wasn’t there?

Jason Barnard [00:47:22]: Yeah, I’ve written a couple of articles about it, but that was a leak in the documentation. I’m talking here about an additional leak that they haven’t seen yet, which is data, and that allows us to pinpoint. My algorithm was very good. I would say 85% accurate with this extra data. We’re hitting 95% now, but I haven’t told anybody what it is, because when I do, Google will shut it down, and in the meantime, I can collect data, and I’ve got. Hang on. How much was it? 200 million data points in a month and a half.

Mark Hayward [00:47:55]: Wow.

Jason Barnard [00:47:56]: So I’m hammering Google’s APIs to get as much as I can before they shut it down.

Mark Hayward [00:48:01]: Amazing. All right, we’re coming to the end of the interview. Ask the same six questions to all of my guests. They quick fire questions. They don’t need a quick fire answer.

Jason Barnard [00:48:09]: Okay.

Invest in Coaching to Transform Your Business

Mark Hayward [00:48:10]: First question is, what’s the best decision you’ve made?

Jason Barnard [00:48:14]: Hiring coaches. I actually…

Mark Hayward [00:48:19]: How did you select the right coaches? Like, how did you find them?

Jason Barnard [00:48:23]: I met Mads initially at an event, and I started talking to him, and he seemed to me to be somebody who was talking a lot of sense, so I started working with him. Stephen, it was somebody who reached out to me. Generally speaking, I wouldn’t engage with somebody who was doing cold outreach, but I struck lucky. And Stephen Lock is absolutely brilliant. And Itamar, it was interesting.

Jason Barnard [00:48:48]: I was at another conference, so networking at conferences in real life is hugely valuable. I met him, and I didn’t know who he was, and we were just talking, and he seemed to me to be, like Mads, incredibly insightful on a different, from a different approach, the psychological approach. It turns out he was a speaker at the event, and he was there to network as well. And he did a, what I liked is that the conversation was organic, and I was already convinced that he was a smart person who I wanted to listen to. And the interesting thing is, I’ve invested $30,000 in my own education, just in how to be a better CEO with these three people, and $30,000 seemed to me to be a lot of money, but it’s already paid back well over $200,000.

From Personal Development to Profitable Returns

Mark Hayward [00:49:32]: What have you saved? What have you saved?

Jason Barnard [00:49:34]: No, we’ve made an additional 200,000, and I wouldn’t be the CEO I am today if it hadn’t been for them, in the sense that truly letting go, truly letting people get on with their job is thanks to that training, because I wouldn’t have done it otherwise. So although I can identify specifically $200,000 that I made, that I wouldn’t have made otherwise, the additional gain in terms of team performance and the future of the team. Now that I’ve let go is unknown now and unmeasurable, but absolutely huge. And the idea of saying investment instead of price or cost, I always thought it was a way to hide the word price or cost. Now I’ve realized investment is when you pay an amount of money in order to generate a bigger amount of money. And in that definition, $30,000 paid in coaching, generating $200,000, I can identify is an investment. So when you’re working with Kalicube, but I tell you it’s $40,000 for a year for a personal brand, that’s an investment, because we expect you to make significantly more money, a huge return on investment. So I can say to people, invest in the Kalicube Process, and I can say it with meaning, because I now understand I’ve walked the walk and I know what it means.

Finding Balance in Entrepreneurship

Mark Hayward [00:50:54]: What’s the best piece of advice you’ve been given?

Jason Barnard [00:50:59]: I think it’s probably the stop putting your foot on the accelerator and take your foot off the brake. It’s hugely valuable because it de stresses everything and it allows you to work just as hard as you always have. Because I think if we’re an entrepreneur, we’re always working hard, we’re always pushing. We’re always pushing. And if you take your foot off the brake, you suddenly realize you’re moving forward much faster, but not actually doing anything extra. In fact, I’m probably doing less in terms of actual effort. And I was talking to Itamar a couple of weeks ago, and one of the things he’s teaching me to do is remain calm at all times. And he’s right.

Jason Barnard [00:51:40]: He said, you just seem so much calmer, and I’m so much calmer because I understand psychologically where I’m coming from and I’m making the right decisions at the right time, even when they’re difficult, because I’m now able to identify the emotions and how they’re affecting my decision making.

How One Mentorship Shaped Jason Barnard’s Career

Mark Hayward [00:51:56]: Amazing. This question might be a little bit redundant. It is. Who’s the person that’s helped you most in your career?

Jason Barnard [00:52:05]: Oh, I’m trying to remember his name. A guy called Hans who taught me to play double bass. That famous 30 day is if he hadn’t done that, I wouldn’t have been a double bass player. I wouldn’t have been in that band. If I had not been in that band, I wouldn’t have created my first company, music publisher and music, sorry, tour organizer. If I hadn’t done that, I wouldn’t have made the music, Boowa and Kwala and created the second company. And I wouldn’t be where I am today.

Jason Barnard [00:52:34]: It was a two-hour lesson, how to play the double bass. And he taught me multiple things, but one of them was, if you hit it in time, it doesn’t matter what note you’re playing. If you’re smiling all the time, everybody thinks you know what you’re doing, even though you don’t. If you can stop and start mostly at the right time, nobody’s going to pay attention to you as a double bass player. Nobody really cares. And there are only two types of people in the audience that you need to think about when you mess up. When you play the wrong note, you think it sounds this big and everybody’s heard it, and everyone’s going, how terrible. But there are only two types of people in the audience. One, somebody who knows nothing about music and they’ve got no idea you made a mistake.

Jason Barnard [00:53:21]: Two, the real jazz people who know so much about music that they’re going to think you’ve done something super clever that they don’t understand, so they won’t dare tell you or ask you about it.

Mark Hayward [00:53:32]: Love it.

Jason Barnard [00:53:33]: And that gave me the confidence to play that first gig. Got me through the first gig and the rest, as they say, is history. Thank you, Hans.

Understanding the Distinction Between Passion and Profit

Mark Hayward [00:53:42]: Amazing. Thank you. Tell me about a regret that you have.

Jason Barnard [00:53:44]: Not understanding the difference between the project I was building and the business of that project. That the project Boowa and Kwala, which is the cartoon blue dog. I was so into the project and the beauty and the value of the project and sharing it with the entire world, helping kids grow up, have a great time in a kind and supportive manner. And the fact that my business partner just wanted to make a lot of money as fast as he possibly could, I got completely caught out by it. So I regret not identifying that. There’s two very distinct things, and you’ve got to be very careful on the business side, because business is business. And I thought business was my blue dog having a nice time sharing with the world.

Creating a Lasting Impact by Empowering Others Through Innovation and Self-Determination

Mark Hayward [00:54:36]: What are you most proud of?

Jason Barnard [00:54:41]: Proud that I’ve always created. I’ve always been productive. I’ve always created, and it’s always been positive for the world. So punk folk, whether you like it or not, was positive because it gave people a good feeling, a good time. And I was creating music, creating something that didn’t exist before to make people happy and make their lives slightly better. For the children, it was inventing, creating the blue dog and the yellow koala TV series that was on ITB International that didn’t exist before and made children’s world better. And now with Kalicube, I’m creating something that allows self determination in a really scary world where AI machines are going to take over and how ChatGPT, Perplexity, Bing, Gemini, sorry, Bing Copilot, Google Gemini, understand you today and represent you today is the foundation of how they will understand you for years to come.

Jason Barnard [00:55:39]: And we offer these services to our clients. We give our clients self determination, control over their own identity online, both with their audience and with the machines. But if you go to kalicube.com K-A-L-I-C-U-B-E .com, we give it all away for free. So I’m proud that I’m giving it to everybody. If you want to do it yourself, not a problem, but you’ll be guessing. If you want to be not guessing, if you want to be sure that everything you’re doing is as effective as it possibly can be, you need the 2 billion data points, and that’s by working with us. So we’re creating something that nobody else has done that’s valuable to people.

Jason Barnard [00:56:23]: We’re giving it away because it’s valuable and providing an opportunity to invest in their own personal brand, to people who feel that or know that their time is valuable, that we can do it more effectively, more efficiently, and take the worry off their shoulders.

Passion as the Driving Force

Mark Hayward [00:56:40]: Amazing. Why do you do what you do?

Jason Barnard [00:56:43]: Because it’s fun. Honestly.

Mark Hayward [00:56:46]: That’s the best, I’ve never heard of that. Best answer by far.

Jason Barnard [00:56:51]: But it’s really weird. Well, really weird. I’ve never, since that first company, never done or never created a company where I wasn’t doing something that I fundamentally want to do every morning when I get up and I’m looking forward to tomorrow when I go to sleep today.

Mark Hayward [00:57:12]: That’s amazing. And I think that’s, as an entrepreneur, that’s what you should be striving for. The hardest days, work is actually no work at all compared to having a boss instructing you on what you need to do. And so that’s the beauty of having your own business, is to direct.

Jason Barnard [00:57:31]: Brilliant. I think that was an amazing conclusion you just did. I literally have nothing to say in addition.

Legacy Through Impact

Mark Hayward [00:57:38]: Last question, what does legacy mean to you?

Jason Barnard [00:57:42]: That people remember me as the person who gave them the opportunity for self determination in an AI world over the perception of the world and the AI engines and the representation of the AI engine. The memory of Boowa and Kwala, the cartoon characters, to the point at which, I have people tweeting me on my birthday saying happy birthday because it’s Boowa’s birthday as well, saying this was my childhood. I remember growing up with this. It was so important to me. That’s legacy. And I got on a plane a few years ago in the Réunion Island, which is near Mauritius and the stewardess said you’re Jason Barnard. I used to come and see your gigs when I was like 18 years old in 1993. I loved what you did. I used to get drunk and jump around and pogo.

Jason Barnard [00:58:41]: And now, later in life, I meet one of the people who made that happen. So legacy is that is being remembered for the positive contribution I’ve made to people’s lives.

Connect with Jason Barnard to Discover More and Reach Out

Mark Hayward [00:58:54]: And lastly, where can people find you if they want to reach out to you or ask you anything?

Jason Barnard [00:58:59]: You can Google my name and that will give you a result that shows you how you can engage with me. Visit my website, if you want to know about me personally. Go to my company website, kalicube.com, if you want to work with me. Read my Knowledge Panel, which shows a summary of my life and you can go and investigate Boowa and Kwala or The Barking Dogs, the punk folk group, Google’s understanding of the facts. That’s option one. Option two is ask ChatGPT or Google Gemini or Copilot or Perplexity. Who is Jason Barnard? And they will describe me to you and give you opportunities to learn more about me because I’ve educated them so they understand pretty much everything about me.

Reflections on an Incredible Journey

Mark Hayward [00:59:37]: Thank you so much for your time, Jason. It’s been a real whirlwind of different areas, different aspects of your life and that’s why I love what I do. I get to speak to people like you who have enriched their current lives but also led an amazing life as well. So thank you so much for your time. I really do appreciate you. Cheers.

Jason Barnard [00:59:56]: An absolute pleasure. Thank you so much, Mark.

Mark Hayward [01:00:05]: I really hope you’ve enjoyed that content. It’s a really fascinating interview that I’ve done there. So please do, if you are enjoying this content, please do give it a like, please do give a subscribe. It’d be really good to boost the subscriptions. It really makes a difference to the algorithm in YouTube. So thank you for that. If you do hit subscribe, hit the bell icon and you’ll get all of the content. You’ll get notified when all the content is available.

Mark Hayward [01:00:29]: Thank you so much for your time. It’s really appreciated. Thanks a lot.