The Tim Heale Podcasts S3 E84 Jason Barnard
In this episode I chat with Jason:
Jason Barnard is an author and digital marketing consultant. He specialises in Brand SERPs (what appears when your audience Googles your Brand name) and knowledge panels (what Google understands about who you are and what you do). His backstory – from playing the Cavern Club in Liverpool to touring Europe playing double bass in a punk-folk group to playing the role of a cartoon blue dog in a TV series to remote working from a tropical island in the Indian Ocean…
[00:00:00] Narrator: The Tim Heale Podcasts: Ordinary people’s extraordinary stories
Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy) On Growing up in Yorkshire
[00:00:07] Tim Heale: Welcome to The Tim Heale Podcast. In this episode, I’m going to have a chat with Jason. Jason’s going to tell me where and when he was born. He’s going to describe what it was like where he grew up, the schools he went to, and the education that he received. So, Jason, welcome.
[00:00:25] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Thank you so much, Tim. Absolutely delighted to be here. Being asked to talk about my childhood and my education doesn’t happen very often. So, I’m looking forward to this.
[00:00:34] Tim Heale: Good. So when and where?
[00:00:37] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Born in Leeds in Yorkshire. And every time I say the word Yorkshire, I put that stupid accent on because I was actually brought up in Yorkshire, but I don’t have the accent. Although people who hear me in the UK can hear the accent, very slight bits and bobs here.
[00:00:53] Tim Heale: Yeah. It’s a bit of a twang. Yeah. Must have been…
[00:00:55] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Little bit of a twang. I was convinced it was totally neutral, and apparently, it’s not at all. But I’ve been living in France and Mauritius in Africa for the last 35 years. So, I got used to people just saying, oh, you’re English. And that was as good as it got.
[00:01:10] Tim Heale: Oui, oui, monsieur.
[00:01:12] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Oui, oui, monsieur. Why am I imitating your accent? That’s very rude. Oui, oui, monsieur. I actually speak good French.
[00:01:19] Tim Heale: Oh. My French is brilliant.
[00:01:22] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): All right.
Some Experiences of Speaking French in Their Previous Jobs
[00:01:23] Tim Heale: Some years ago, I used to, I was driving a line truck from Oslo to Paris for a Norwegian company. And we used to go to a factory down just outside La Môle. And I used to drive into this factory and pull up this Norwegian wagon and drag and see the charge adding coming out. You could see his body just sink when he saw me …
[00:01:53] Tim Heale: “Bonjour monsieur, ca va? Avez vous chargé pour moi?” and he’s put his hands over his head. He’s put his hands. Please, please. I speak English. Don’t speak French.
[00:02:08] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): What you just described is what I sounded like when I was looking for work in the south of France picking grapes. And it was pretty much the same thing. One thing I did want to ask is when you drive all the way down there in your truck and you get to La Môle, do you just drive around in circles for 24 hours? Do you do the love in place? It might be fun.
[00:02:28] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): We were either driving, eating,
[00:02:32] Tim Heale: or sleeping. And some days we were running with two or sometimes three takes of grafts in the day.
[00:02:41] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Right. Oh, yeah. Oh, were you allowed to swap them out?
[00:02:46] Tim Heale: Slightly bent at a time. This was a while back. It’s the reason the Norwegians are employing English drivers because we’d earned a thousand pound a trip. And if you could do two trips in a week, that’s two grand for a week back in the early 90s.
[00:03:03] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Wow. I tell you what. Early 90s, I was earning 200 quid a month playing music in a punk-folk band. So, you were rich and I was poor.
[00:03:14] Tim Heale: Yeah. Anyway, we’ll come on to it.
[00:03:16] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Sorry.
Living on a Farm with His University Professor Father and a Mother Who Left Them
[00:03:16] Tim Heale: So, schooling.
[00:03:18] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Right. Oh, yeah. Okay. Born in Leeds, and we moved to a farm in the middle of the Yorkshire Moores when I was, I think, two or three. And that was literally, it’s like Hound of the Baskervilles stuff. It was right of the end of a road. Thank you very much for the sound effects. Right on at the end of a road, as it went off onto the Yorkshire Moores, and the village had 25 people in it.
[00:03:47] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): So tiniest village you can possibly imagine on a derelict farm, which my dad then proceeded to build back into being a normal kind of house. And he wasn’t a farmer. He’s a university professor. And then my mom left and left my dad with three children to bring up in the middle of the Yorkshire Moors with a Hound of the Baskervilles for neighbours. The local school, sorry, go ahead.
[00:04:20] Tim Heale: Yeah. So, it’s probably his own fault, expected her to live in the dolly wood ends.
[00:04:21] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Yeah. I wouldn’t go into their relationship, but she ran away with a jazz musician, which is exciting. That was in the 70s. So, you had a father bringing up three children in the countryside in the 70s.
[00:04:36] Tim Heale: Yeah.
Going to a Not So Posh School in Otley and Having to Change Accents
[00:04:37] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): And if you’ve heard of Ilkley Moor Bar t’At, right opposite Ilkley in a tiny village called Denton. We were actually in high Denton. And sorry, that’s my phone ring and I should have turned it on to, what is it?
[00:04:54] Tim Heale: Silent.
[00:04:55] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Thank you very much. I’ll do that now. But unfortunately, we didn’t go to the really posh school in Ilkley, because Ilkley is quite posh. We got sent to Otley, which isn’t posh at all.
[00:05:07] Tim Heale: Otley.
[00:05:08] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Otley. They’re famous for rugby. I do apologise to anybody from Otley or from Yorkshire for my stupid accent. Because what was interesting at school is I went to the school in Otley, and at school I had to speak like this all day long, say I’m having my dinner at lunchtime, and then go home and say, hello, father, delightful to talk to you. Oh, absolutely. I had this dual personality with this accent that had to change. Because if I spoke with the posh accent at school, I got beaten up. And if I spoke with the Yorkshire accent at home, I got a slap down the head.
Eating Two Dinners Every Day as a Child Because of Dinner Tickets From School
[00:05:42] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): And one nice story for my school days was we had dinner tickets. Lunch was called dinner. And then I would have dinner at lunchtime, and then I would go home and I would have dinner with my dad. So, I had two dinners every day of my life when I was a child.
[00:06:01] Tim Heale: That sounds reasonable, I suppose. I suppose do away with lunch and have dinner at lunchtime. It doesn’t make a lot of sense.
[00:06:08] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Yeah. You get, you have breakfast, then you have dinner, then you have dinner again then you go to bed.
[00:06:13] Tim Heale: Yeah. Not forgetting a bit of supper before you go to bed.
[00:06:16] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Yeah. I used to go stay with my friends, and those days I would get breakfast, dinner, tea, and supper. And I quite like that. It was really nice. I got four different names for the different meals in the day. So, that was much more pleasant.
[00:06:33] Tim Heale: Sounds like a lot of fun back then.
Walking Three Miles and Riding the Bus to Meet Friends Who Are Not Home
[00:06:35] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Yeah. And I was talking to a friend of mine the other day, not so much to do with schooling. But because we lived in the middle of the countryside and because it was all landlines, you didn’t have mobile phones, and I had to walk three miles to get to the nearest bus stop. And then there was a bus every two hours to get into town where I could go see my friends. And so, I never knew whether they were going to be there. So I walked three miles, get on the bus, go into town, get off the bus at the start of the town, and start knocking on the doors of my friends’ houses, hoping they were going to be there. And often of course, they weren’t.
[00:07:11] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): And sometimes I would literally go around to 15 different houses looking for my mates. Their moms would answer the door. And say, he’s not here, he’s off playing with his mates somewhere else. And I spent a lot of my childhood wandering from house to house. And then sometimes we’ll get invited in by the mothers and they called me Orphan Annie. And they’d give me food, sit me in front of the TV with some food and the heating on in the middle of winter in new Yorkshire. And I would just sit there and get myself mothered by my friends’ mothers, which is absolutely delightful.
[00:07:45] Tim Heale: Yeah. So thinking about that, it’s like a double thing. It was with all those sort of dents you’re having. You get to walk a bit of it off.
Playing as a Goalkeeper in Football Even as a Skinny and Small Boy
[00:07:56] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Good point. I was really, really skinny and I was incredibly small. I was tiny. And at school, some people in life just decided to make their own lives harder than they need to be. I was tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny. I decided I wanted to be the goalkeeper in football. And they called me the serf. And the reason they called me the serf is because I let in so many goals. And the strikers would just look at me and say and they just hook it over the top of me. Anything above this height just goes straight and they goal. So, I was a terrible goalkeeper called the serf. Everybody hated me, but I insisted on being in goal in football because I wanted to prove I could do it, and I couldn’t.
[00:08:37] Tim Heale: You’d have done better off playing rugby and scrum-half.
[00:08:41] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Yeah. They tried to get me to play rugby, but I didn’t really want to running around in the mud, didn’t seem to me like my turf. Having just said that, running around in the mud is what you’re doing in football as well. You just, yeah, anyway. So, yeah, I should’ve been a scrum-half. Good point. Thank you very much. I will now go back 45 years and become a scrum-half. My life has been transformed.
[00:09:04] Tim Heale: I was playing scrum-half at school, and I played it until I was 56.
[00:09:09] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Oh, oh, quite. And now you’re 57 if I’m understanding correctly.
[00:09:13] Tim Heale: I wish.
[00:09:14] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): I was being charming.
[00:09:16] Tim Heale: Thank you so much.
Studying in Prince Henry’s Grammar School and Just Figuring How to Avoid Getting Into a Fight
[00:09:20] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Yeah. So, went to Prince Henry’s Grammar School, which sounds incredibly posh. Prince Henry’s Grammar School, but it’s actually a comprehensive school in Otley. And it was fairly standard comprehensive school. I got…
[00:09:36] Tim Heale: So, you didn’t do the 11 Plus then to get in there?
[00:09:40] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): No. We did the 11 Plus, but that was to get into Bradford Grammar School. And I failed that. So obviously I wasn’t smart enough. And I stayed at Prince Henry’s Grammar School, and it was all about avoiding fights. I would spend every day just figuring out how to avoid getting to a fight with somebody. And it was all about, if you said the wrong thing at the wrong person at the wrong time, there will be a fight with a big group of kids around going fight, fight, fight, fight, fight.
[00:10:11] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): And so actually, what I decided to do on the first day of school, they all supported Leeds United. So, I went and thought I’m going to support Manchester City because they all hate Manchester City and I’m small. And basically, one person had one fight with me, and I just kept fighting and fighting and fighting. And they basically, at the end of it said, he keeps fighting, he’s small, and he supports Manchester City, and he’s willing to say so. So, either he’s totally mad or he is actually quite a good fighter.
[00:10:41] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): And so, I generally didn’t get into too much trouble, but it was, I don’t know whether many people in the UK went through that kind of schooling, but I just remember just thinking, how can I avoid getting into fights all day long. And then, how can I also sit at the back of the class and never get asked questions by the teacher. I don’t want to be the teacher’s pet. That’s the person who gets the most beaten up at school.
[00:11:08] Tim Heale: Yeah. I always found it when I did go to school, they sit in the front, they tend to ignore you and pick on those at the back they’re mocking about.
Barely Getting Through With His Grades and Not Liking His French Teacher
[00:11:17] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): All right. So, I got it totally wrong. Oh, what an idiot. So, that probably explains my painful school career. And I did my O levels, actually got through to the O levels, and I got four out of the nine O levels. So, I completely flunk. And I got a U, unclassified for French, which is pretty impressive.
[00:11:37] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): And given the fact that I’m now totally bilingual, the irony is quite enormous that I was so very bad at French, but that was thanks to or down to my horrible French teacher I hated with all my little heart. And I think I was, I probably just didn’t listen because I didn’t like him. And I actually remember his name, Mr. Benton. And it’s interesting is how much you like your teacher or dislike your teacher, in this case, has an immense effect at how good you are at the topic, a subject at school and how successful you might then end up being.
[00:12:16] Tim Heale: So, four O levels. That’s four more than I got anyway.
[00:12:23] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Yeah. Coming from a family with a university professor father, four O levels is a bit below what was expected of. And so, he actually managed to get me into the A levels. So I managed to do some A levels, but only because he went in and bullied the head teacher to let me go through. I think they were going to throw me out and fair enough to them.
Trying His Luck Standing Up for Labor in a Mock General Election
[00:12:52] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): And, oh, we had a mock general election at school when it was Margaret Thatcher. And I stood for labour. And I was so bad and I was such, I was just really stroppy. Even the Liberal Democrats beat me. So, I did this mock general election. I think I got three votes, and they were from three of the teachers who happened to be really, really big labour supporters and couldn’t do anything else. So, my mock general election experience is, oh, I didn’t vote for myself very intelligently. So, that’s three votes out 1,500 kids at the school plus the teachers that is for labour at the time who were, obviously not incredibly popular, but they were certainly doing better than three out of 1,500.
[00:13:42] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): So, not a good politician, not very good at O levels, scrape through my A levels, and decided I would never go back into education ever again because I hated it so much. Oh, and I remember the teachers at school saying, oh, these are the best years of your life. And I just sat there thinking, this is as bad as it gets, I’m stopping now.
Moving Out of Their Farmhouse and Finding a Job Working In Nurseries
[00:14:10] Tim Heale: So, what did you do at the end of school? You clearly didn’t go onto university then.
[00:14:12] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): I actually then went to live in Leeds. And I remember I was lying on the grass in front of our farmhouse, which was now quite a lovely living in a house as opposed to derelict farmhouse, lying in the sun, thinking isn’t life wonderful. And my dad came over. He stood over me. I remember his shadow came across me. And he said, I don’t know why you are looking so comfortable. I’m selling the house next week, and there isn’t a room for you. So I had to leave, move to Leeds, and live in a little flat, and I got a job. Oh, god. I got a job, 45 quid a week or was it 45 quid a month, I can’t remember, selling computers to, what are they called? Plant selling companies. What are they called?
[00:15:01] Tim Heale: Nurseries.
[00:15:02] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Yeah, nurseries. And I got a job and it was almost totally based on commission. And I spent four months and then got completely bored of it because I didn’t sell anything. And I would go in and I would try and sell these kind of computer systems. This is 1984 to 1985. And I was trying to sell these computer systems. I’m going to say, it’s brilliant. It keeps track of all your stock, all the plans that you’re selling, and it’s perfectly all aligned, and then you can print these reports out. And at the end of the year, you’ve got perfect stock taking. And everyone would say, oh, looks really good, but I’m not buying it.
[00:15:39] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): And then one day, one of the bosses explained to me, not the bosses of the company, one of the bosses of one of the nurseries said to me, do you know what? You’re never going to sell that. I go, but why not? It’s brilliant. It does amazing stock-taking. It’s dedicated to nursing. He said, because we cheat the taxes by saying all the plants have died. So if you give us great stock-taking, we can’t cheat on the taxes anymore. I just left the company. I thought, yeah, okay, this is the world’s worst job, trying to sell something to people that literally makes them make less money.
Going Back to Studying and Entering University in Liverpool John Moores University
[00:16:17] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): So, I spent a year and realised in that year that working is worse than education. So, I went back to university. But just based on the fact that I couldn’t stand working, you go, anything’s better than this. So, I went to Liverpool to university at John Moores, which at the time was the cheaper polytechnic. When you had polytechnics and universities and you had all the people at Liverpool University, the red brick, posh place with the intelligent people and then it was a lot from Liverpool John Moores Polytechnic at the time, just generally being rubbish, but I absolutely loved it.
[00:17:02] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Liverpool was like, I spent three a bit over three years there. And turns out, same as John Lennon, because my current job now is that I build Google’s understanding of us so that when people search your name, Google shows what you want and I’ve managed. This is great. I’ve managed to get myself next to John Lennon in a presentation of alumni of John Moores Liverpool University. So it says, John Lennon, Jason Barnard, it doesn’t make me a better person, but I think that’s cool.
[00:17:36] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): And I studied economics and statistics, which makes me sound much more intelligent than I actually was, but I spent most of my time skipping classes, drinking beer, playing football with the Bootle boot boys, going to Anfield to watch Liverpool, and, oh, trying to learn to play snooker.
[00:17:54] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): I was watching snook the other day on the TV and, yeah, generally speaking, I get reasonably good if I practice and if I got quite good at chess at one point. And I must have played, I don’t know, I spent days and days and days trying to learn to play snooker, and I never got a breakup of about six or seven. I get one red, then I get a blue, and then it will all go horribly wrong. And I never got good at it. I never ever ever got even a little bit good at it. And I don’t understand why. Because darts in the pub, I was brilliant. I got slightly better the more I played. And with snooker, however much I played, I never got any better.
Experiencing the Toxteth Riots in 1985
[00:18:34] Tim Heale: What else did you do up in Liverpool then, apart from sort of going around printing cartwheels and stuff like that?
[00:18:43] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Well, I lived in Toxteth, which was an interesting experience because the Toxteth riots were in 1985. So, I moved in and literally two days later, the police had this big barrier at the end of Princes Avenue with all their riot shields and their water cannons, all that. And then hundreds of people just came running down the street and attacked them. And I was this 19-year-old new student going, ooh, is this what it’s like all the time in Liverpool?
[00:19:18] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): So it was a bit of an awakening to real life, especially I was brought up in the countryside amongst the sheep and the cows, and I thought I was this kind of punk and boom boom, an absolute rubbish. As soon as there’s this Toxteth riot, I was going, oh, dear, this is really scary. And what we did, brilliant idea by me and my mates who were students, is we went and hid in the pub and drank beer. That was the solution to the Toxteth riots from the Liverpool new students. Brilliant.
Taking up Economics and Thinking About Getting a Master’s Degree
[00:19:51] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): So, yeah, I did three years there, studied Economics. From an intellectual standpoint, it was actually quite interesting because we started by studying John Maynard Keynes and Galbraith, which was the dominant, let’s say, social economic where the state has a responsibility towards the people in terms of health and in terms of education, in terms of transport, and so on and so forth.
[00:20:19] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): And Margaret Thatcher won I think her second term, it might have been at that point. And you had Patrick Minford, who was at Liverpool University, and Friedman in America. And at that point, Ronald Reagan also won. And Ronald Reagan was big chums with Friedman, and Margaret Thatcher was mates with Patrick Winford. And of course, Margaret Thatcher and our friend Ronald Reagan were best mates.
[00:20:49] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): And so, that neoclassical economics world just totally took over literally from one year to the next. And we went from studying John Mayard Keynes and John Kenneth Galbraith just studying only neoclassical economics. And it was two years of kind of leftwing economics and then one year of very rightwing economics. And economics since then has never looked back and has stuck in this neoclassical thing.
[00:21:18] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): So, I actually thought about doing a master’s. And when I told them I wanted to study the fundamental base on which neoclassical economics is built and do a critic of it, they wouldn’t let me do it because obviously, that’s attacking the entire basis of what they’re trying to prove. And they said, go and see the philosophy department. And I said to the philosophy department what I wanted to study, and they said, we’ve got no idea what you’re talking about. We couldn’t possibly judge a master’s thesis on this. So I went back in the other words and told them that. And they said, nope, we’re still not having you. So, I moved to Paris and the rest is history, as they say.
Getting a Very Average Grade and Finishing His Degree
[00:22:00] Tim Heale: So, just a quick one. So, did you actually complete and get a double first or not quite that good?
[00:22:12] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): No, not quite. I didn’t get much better than my A levels or my O levels. I got a 2:2, a fairly spectacularly average, 2:2. This horse here is called Stanley the Counting Horse, who was a horse who could count, and we had a blues band. And so, I spent a lot of my time in the blues band singing in pubs and with this deep, big, deep voice singing songs with this tiny, tiny bloke, who was about this thing, with this massive kind of voice singing blues songs from the 1930s in America. Totally incongruous and totally silly and absolutely wonderful with a bunch of guys, one from Goose Green and then some others from Liverpool.
[00:22:59] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): So, I got a 2:2 just because I turned up as far as I can tell. I didn’t do anything decent in terms of work. So, I’ve got a 2:2 very average, very second rate, an interesting degree from a not particularly good university. And that’s absolutely fine for me. So, I got my degree.
Moving to Paris, Falling in Love, and Having a Failed Relationship
[00:23:20] Tim Heale: Yes. So, moving on to Paris then. Why Paris?
[00:23:25] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Yeah. I’d been, as I said, my mother was a musician or is a musician still. And she went on tours around Europe. And so, every now and then, the kids would spend holidays with her. And she took us on tour. How cool is that? And in one of those tours, I think I was about 17. So, I wasn’t being taken on tour so much as tagging along because probably, now I think about it, she probably didn’t want me around and I just forced myself upon them. And they were playing a gig in Paris and I thought that’d be really cool.
[00:24:00] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): So, I pitched up in Paris, and I met a woman, a girl who was 16, I think, at the time. And I totally fell in love, totally, totally big eyes. And she was reciprocal about the lovey thing going on. And so, I went back to Liverpool, sorry, to Yorkshire Liverpool. And we’re sending each other postcards with, oh, I love you, isn’t it lovely, and heaven knows what you’re writing. It only occurred to me a few years ago that we were writing our postcards, and the postman or postwoman in Liverpool must have been reading these things going, oh my, giggling themselves to that as they walk down the road, stuck it through the letterbox.
[00:24:47] Tim Heale: Or just shown all their mates before they’re going out around.
[00:24:53] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Brilliant. Oh, yeah. I hope I gave them some pleasure because I’m sure I wrote some pretty pathetic stuff on those postcards. And then I pitched up in Paris and turns out she had a boyfriend who was very tall whereas I was very small. He was very clever and had a first-class degree, whereas I was a 2:2 from Liverpool John Moores University having played in the world’s worst blues band called Stanley the Counting Horse. And she looked at us and I think she went, I think I’ll stick with what I’ve got. So, it fell apart.
Joining a Really Good Punk Folk Band Who Were Playing on the Streets and Playing Gigs
[00:25:26] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): But then I joined a band and that’s this one here, which is a really cool story, because I was sitting around going, I wonder what I’ll do now. And a friend of mine, who I used to have a ping pong with him in Liverpool, we had ping pong tournaments for some obscure reasons, and I was actually quite good at ping pong, much better than at billiards or snooker. And he said, oh, I’ve got some mates. They’ve got a band. Do you want to go and see them?
[00:25:52] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): So, I went to see this band. And they were really good. They were seriously really, really good. Second-rate blues band is one thing. This was a really good band. And they were playing folk music with a big punky kind of feeling, punky attitude, let’s say. And I saw them and I said, oh, that’s brilliant, wow, great. And then, my mate told them that I was a musician because I played a little bit guitar and sang. They said, oh, does he want to join our band? And I was going, oh yeah, definitely, oh, brilliant.
[00:26:26] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Basically, they were playing in the street. They were busking and then played gigs from time to time. And I said, yeah, I’ll join you band. I’m a singer. And they said, oh, we don’t need a singer. We’ve got all three of us are singers. And I said, oh, I can play a bit of guitar. And they said, yeah, but we’ve got a guitarist. We don’t need a guitarist. We need a double bass player. I said, but I don’t play double bass. And they said, if you want to be in the band, you have to play double bass. You don’t have a choice. And I had 500 quid left in the entire universe, and I went and bought a double bass with it on the assumption that I could learn to play it. And then I turned up with this double bass said, right off we go, what do I need to do? And they said, we’ve got a gig in 30 days. If you can learn to play the double bass in 30 days, you’re in the band.
Learning to Play a New Instrument in 30 Days to be Able to Join the Band
[00:27:13] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): So, I learned to play the double bass not very well in 30 days. And I had a lesson from a German jazz double bass player, and he basically said to me a few things that are actually very good advice in general, for the double bass at least. It was, keep hitting it in time and you’ll be fine. Nobody cares about the notes. There are only two types of people in the audience. There are musicians and non-musicians. Non-musicians don’t know you’ve played the wrong notes. Jazz musicians will think you’ve done something really clever and won’t dare to ask you what it was you did.
[00:27:54] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): And if you think about that, all you got to do is hit the blooming thing in time and more or less in the right range of notes and smile the whole time. And if you’re smiling and bouncing around and hitting it in time, people will think you know what you’re doing even if you don’t. And it worked. It worked an absolute true. I’m pretty sure I didn’t play particularly brilliant and I stopped and started at the wrong moments and got loads of bum notes in there. But I got in a band and then we had, I don’t know, maybe almost 10 years. We recorded four albums, released them in Europe, and toured Europe for 10 years playing 660 gigs. Worked out better than my snooker career.
[00:28:40] Tim Heale: Yes. Couldn’t have been any worse that’s for sure.
Touring Europe: From Playing a Small Bar With Three People to Playing a Festival With Bob Dylan
[00:28:45] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Oh, good point, good point. I was put in the bad very low with this lucky career, wasn’t I? And I actually, I was allowed to sing some songs so I carried on singing a bit. And it was really, really, really good. It was a good bunch of people touring around France and Europe. We played in Italy. We played in Spain. We played in Ireland, played in the UK a couple of times, but I wasn’t there at the time, Germany quite a lot, Holland as well. And we played a festival with Bob Dylan. He was obviously top of the bill and we were obviously very bottom of the bill, but now still got my name on the same poster.
[00:29:27] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): And we played a gig in Milan. And we got the gig and then we turned up and it was this tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny bar. And we set all our equipment up and then nobody turned up. And we said to the owners, why didn’t anybody turn up? They said, there’s U2 playing in the stadium just down the road. So, you had U2 playing in front of 60,000 people, and we played in front of three people and some poor person’s dog in this tiny bar.
[00:30:01] Tim Heale: And the bar staff.
[00:30:01] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): And the bar staff. Yeah. Presumably, we’re thinking I’d rather be at the U2 gig.
The Most Memorable Gig They Did
[00:30:06] Tim Heale: Yeah. So, all these 600 old gigs that you did across Europe, what was your most memorable one?
[00:30:18] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Oh, that’s a good question. Oh, I’ll tell you what, oh, I know exactly which the most memorable one was is you talked about Le Mans earlier on, which is the 24-hour race. And we played a gig in Brittany, which was absolutely brilliant. And it was the 24 hours of, you know the little tiny French mopeds that kids ride around on? They’ve got the 24 hours of that, and they go round and round an athletics track of 400 meters for 24 hours. And while they’re doing it, they have a big tent set up in the middle, and they have 24 hours of music from various bands like ourselves.
[00:30:53] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): And so, we turned up and played. And it was literally like a thousand people packed into this tent in the middle of this track. And we would play the song and it would be really on the big, big sound system making loads of noise, and then the people would cheer and you’d be go, woo. And then there would go that silence thought and then you’d hear, weee, weee, weee. Silly, but it was an absolutely brilliant gig. And I loved it to bits because it was so incongruous and because it was so silly.
The Worst Gig They Experienced
[00:31:26] Tim Heale: So, what was the worst gig that you did?
[00:31:35] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): That’s a difficult choice because when it’s one old man and his dog, which would be the U2 gig, obviously not quite that. There was actually quite fun because being in Milan on in and of itself is just quite a lot of fun, but I remember one gig we played and it was in Brittany again. So, Brittany keeps coming up, why it might have been there, a great place to be. And we played a gig in a pub. And there were, I don’t know, it was a pretty small pub, but there were about a hundred people and it was fairly packed. And there was a punk who was totally, totally wasted who was pogoing like this in front and ruining it for everybody and generally being a bit of a plonker.
[00:32:22] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): And after a while, I thought I need to do some sort of outsay with my double bass, jumped into the crowd, and started pogoing with him in my punk manner with the double bass. And he was getting really aggressive with me, and I was trying to play the music whilst pogoing with this punk and trying to push into the side so that he would leave some space for the actual people who were there for the music to dance.
[00:32:45] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): And at one point, I swung the bass around like that and smacked him on the side of the head. And the top of my double bass flew off. And to this day, it still doesn’t have what we used to call Jason’s knob. Jason’s knob was missing from that day on because I smacked this punk in the head with the top of my double bass, and knocked him out cold. They dragged him off. He was better later on. He was perfectly happy, and we had a good gig after that. So, it was the worst and the best in different ways depending on how you look at it.
A Story When Jason’s Double Bass Got Blown up by the French Bomb Squad
[00:33:19] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): I’ve got another good story about my double bass is the French police, the French bomb squad blew my double bass up because they thought it was a bomb.
[00:33:30] Tim Heale: It’s awfully kind of them. Did they replace it?
[00:33:34] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): No, no, no, no. They said it was my own fault. I parked the van in front of a school during video era, and you weren’t allowed to do that, long story, very boring. And I left my double bass in it. And what they did is they blew the back doors off the van to see what was inside. And my double bass was leaning against the back door. And when I heard the explosion, I ran down. I thought, what’s going on, what’s going on. I saw the back doors blown off the van, and I thought my bass is going to be match sticks. And surprisingly enough, it wasn’t. Double basses are phenomenally strong. It had two big cracks down it. A bit would’ve fallen off. And I got a luthier to stick it all back together again, and I’ve still got it to this day.
[00:34:18] Tim Heale: Did it improve the sound at all?
[00:34:21] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Yeah. That wasn’t my biggest worry as a punk folk musician. The quality of the sound wasn’t the thing I was looking for. So, yeah, it might have done, it might have not done. I don’t really know. But I used to be able to stand up on it. And so, double basses are very strong. I could stand up on it and play it as I was standing on it. And I used to put on my head to play a punk folk version of the Ace of Spades, which was the finale of our gig.
The Barking Dogs’ Songs Online and Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy) On Still Playing His Double Bass
[00:34:47] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): And if anyone wants to look online, look up the Ace of Spades, The Barking Dogs. We were called The Barking Dogs. It’s actually pretty good. We were pretty tight and pretty, I think we were pretty good and we had quite a lot of fun. So, I think we weren’t just bullish. So, it sounds pretentious, but it’s worth listening to.
[00:35:08] Tim Heale: Well, if you made 600 old gigs across Europe over 10 years, you weren’t doing too bad, I guess.
[00:35:14] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): True, true, true, true. Very true. So, look up on YouTube The Barking Dogs, the Ace of Spades, watch that, and imagine this double bass being blown up by the French police and then being smacked into the head of a pumpkin, my knob falling off.
[00:35:28] Tim Heale: And it still play.
[00:35:31] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Yeah. And I’ve still got it, my first and only double bass.
[00:35:36] Tim Heale: All right. And you still play it?
[00:35:39] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Yeah. I haven’t played it the last year because I’ve left it in south France, but yeah. I joined another band with my ex-wife’s new partner and a friend of mine and we played another. Oh, and I got back together again with a singer from that band, my best mate in the entire universe. And so between 2014 and 2019, we played another 60 or 70 gigs. Oh, yeah. I played some music again. I would love to get back to playing music again, playing more gigs.
The Splitting up of the Band and Deciding to Write Songs for Kids but Failing to Sign in Any Recording Company
[00:36:13] Tim Heale: So, bring us a bit further forward then.
[00:36:17] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Yeah. The band split up, which is one of those classic phrases from films like Spinal Tap. The band split up and you think, oh, what am I going to do now? And I don’t know why I decided I would make a music album for children. So, I decided I would write songs for kids.
[00:36:36] Tim Heale: That’s a bit different from being a punk-folk band.
[00:36:42] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): It is a bit different. I was with my ex-wife, and we had decided we would start a family. And I thought, kids music, why not? That should be fun. And my ex-wife, who is absolutely delightful and wonderful human being, had a pretty good job as a graphic designer. And she just said, if you want to make music albums and look after our child and I’ll go out to work and make a living, you can be the househusband, and you can look after our daughter. And while you’re doing that, you can write an album for kids and release it, if that’s really what you want to do. So I did, and it was a really nice experience.
[00:37:26] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): And then, none of the record companies wanted it. I thought I can just walk into these record companies because I’ve been in a band. I’ve had four albums released. I know all the bosses of all the record companies. So, I’ll get it signed and it will be released and I’ll be a children’s music star, how wonderful. And they all just said, no, no, no, we can’t release this. You’re a punk-folk musician. You can’t do children’s music. So, that completely fell through the floor as well. It was a totally mistaken idea.
Creating Cartoon Characters, Releasing It in a Website for Kids, and Being Successful
[00:37:59] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): So in fact, I discussed it with my wife, and I said, maybe we could create some characters. So, she and I created characters. We wrote a story around it, and we created a website with this story, with these two characters, get this blue dog and yellow koala. And the blue dog and the yellow koala sang the songs, and they travelled around the world singing songs.
[00:38:25] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): And we built a website in 1998. We started the website based on the songs with the characters travelling around the world. And my wife was a yellow koala, which is a great quote, and I was a big blue dog. And the website was a phenomenal success. And we started doing that for a living instead, which is really, really weird as an idea.
[00:38:52] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): It was such a success. In fact, we were competing with Disney, PBS, and the BBC. It was one of the leading sites for kids for in the world. And we got 5 million visits a month, a hundred million paid views, and I was calculating, that’s every day. Kids were watching our, well, playing on our website for 3000 days. So, each day in real life was 3000 child playing days on our website, which is phenomenally cool. Yeah. So, I was a blue dog and she was a yellow koala and that was a lot of fun.
Living in Mauritius and Receiving Letters From Viewers of the Website
[00:39:36] Tim Heale: So moving on then, so what did you do after that?
[00:39:40] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): I’ll just tell you what, while we were doing that, in fact, we moved to Mauritius, which is in Africa, it’s just off Madagascar, to a tropical island. And we actually built the website and ran the website from a tropical island in the middle of the Indian Ocean from 2000 to 2008 or something like that. And there’s a lovely story from that because the blue dog was called Boowa and the yellow koala was called Kwala. And we moved into a house in Mauritius, it’s a tiny island in this tiny village in this tiny island.
[00:40:13] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): And I wanted somebody to send me a letter. So I went to the post office, just down the road, which was this tiny little hut. And I said to the postman, what’s our address? And he said, oh, I don’t know. People just write the name of the person, and I know who they are so I can deliver the letter. And I said, can I choose an address? And he said, yeah, if you want. And I said, how about between the sea and the post office. That was my choice. And he said, okay. I said, oh, can I change it? I’d rather have between the cemetery and the sea because that’s a bit more creepy. And he said, nope, you’ve chosen between the sea and the post office, that is your address, and that’s where we will deliver letters.
[00:40:54] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): So what we ended up with is saying to kids or parents of these kids, if you want to send a drawing for the gallery on the website for Boowa & Kwala, you send in a drawing of Boowa & Kwala that your child has done, and you send it to Boowa & Kwala, between the sea and the post office, Tamarin, Mauritius. And it was like writing to Father Christmas, the North Pole. These parents would send off their precious drawing from their child. And when it got to us, we’d post it up and they would write and say, I don’t believe it got there. Boowa & Kwala, between the sea and the post office, Mauritius. Brilliant stuff.
Losing the Business in an Unfair Manner and Working Online Just to Make Ends Meet
[00:41:33] Tim Heale: Oh, brilliant. So how long did that last?
[00:41:36] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Until 2008, so it was a good 10 years. So, each chapter of my life has been 10 years. And then I stayed in Mauritius for various reasons, but my business partner took the company over in the manner that I would not consider to be fair and just, but that’s a story for another day. And I lost the blue dog. And I was so involved in this character. It’s totally insane. I actually started not to see the difference between me and the blue dog. I felt like I was the blue dog, and so I went a little bit mad, I think, to be honest.
[00:42:17] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): And then I needed to make money because we were stuck with a small, a young family in the middle of the Indian Ocean with no means of support. And I basically ended up working online, building websites and applications for clients from Mauritius, but the clients would obviously would be in Europe or America. And I built some insane things. I built a really interesting application. It’s very boring as such, but it would calculate the shipping costs from any town in any country in the world to any other town in any other country in the world depending on the price of fuel flights, transport, and people being paid a thousand quid to drive from Norway to Tullamore.
[00:43:08] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Obviously, I didn’t have all the data, but built a machine and it was still running like seven or eight years later. And it was all based on one Excel sheet my client had built, and then I would just use different bits of code to plug into it and change stuff. And it was really geeky. And I spent a couple of years just doing that, being such a geek. It was untrue.
Moving Back to France, Staying In Montpellier, and Missing Out on Rugby Matches
[00:43:32] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): And then I moved back to France when I got that opportunity and came back to Paris after living in Mauritius. Paris is a bit kind of dreary and dull and grey. So, we moved to near Montpellier in the south where it’s sunny because much, much better lifestyle.
[00:43:55] Tim Heale: And you got rugby down there as well, Montpellier.
[00:43:57] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Yeah. Unfortunately, I was never the fly-half, so I wouldn’t go to the rugby matches.
[00:44:02] Tim Heale: You’re missing out there.
[00:44:05] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Yeah. No. I’m beginning to think 45 years too late that I missed a trick on being a fly-half, but I got to play mute. Sorry.
[00:44:15] Tim Heale: Go and watch the local team.
[00:44:17] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Yeah. I think now you say it, honestly, if we’d had this conversation four or five years ago, I definitely would’ve gone to the rugby matches just because. In life, there’s no particular reason I would go or that I wouldn’t go. But if you say to me, that’s a good idea. That’s as good a reason as any for me to go and watch a rugby match because I might actually turn out to like it.
Starting to Play Gigs Again but Without Any Interest in Money
[00:44:42] Tim Heale: So, you’re down in Montpellier. So what’s…
[00:44:45] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): I started to end up again with my mate, Hugo the singer. We played a few gigs of that. Then we had this concept of the garage party because we were playing these bars and they would say, we want you to play three sets, and we want you to tell everybody to buy beer. And we were making a couple of hundred euros for a gig, and we both had proper jobs. I was freelance, doing SEO at the time. And I was just thinking, I don’t actually even need the 200 euros. I’m only playing the gig because I want to play a gig. I’m not actually interested in the money at all.
[00:45:23] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): And we just said, why are we playing in these bars? And we said because it’s a place to play where people come. And I said, I’ve got a garage underneath my flat, which gives out onto the street and then onto the river. Why don’t we just have a gig in there and get our mates to come? Because people in the bar were generally our mates anyway.
[00:45:43] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): So, we set up this whole system and then we probably had about 15 of them in total. And it was called the garage party. And we would set up our sound system in the garage and say to everybody in the area and the region just come along, bring some food, bring some booze. We’ll have a big party in the garage. And it ended up with about 200 people in the last one. And it was absolutely massive, and it was absolutely brilliant. And it was just having a party and sharing food and sharing drink and sharing a good time. And we got to play a gig. And then we put on a playlist afterwards, and some people who wanted to do a bit of music would get up and do a bit of music.
Just Having a Good Time With People While Playing the Music
[00:46:22] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): And it was I think one of the nicest things I’ve done in my life. And I remember one of the last ones is we were playing and I could see the 200 people, most of whom I knew. Oh, and people would walk by, and they would look in and they would say, can we come in? And I said, there was a little corner shop up the road, go down there, get some booze, come back, and chat and join in. And we ended up with all these people we didn’t know coming into the party, but it was absolutely wonderful.
[00:46:55] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): I remember just standing there playing the music, which I absolutely love and thinking, this is where I belong. This is where I feel most at home. And you could see people with big smiles, dancing, having a good time. When you can do that or when you’re doing that or when you’re part of it and when you can create that kind of atmosphere and that kind of good feeling and that kind of good time and do the thing you like most, which is playing double bass and singing songs, that was perfect. That was a moment of perfection. Oh, sorry. Can we come back to the question from before? That’s my favourite gig.
[00:47:36] Tim Heale: Ah, there you go.
Travelling Around the World, Giving Talks, Doing Interviews Until COVID Hit, and Now Staying With His Daughter
[00:47:40] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Yeah. And then actually at that point, I split up with my girlfriend and decided to give up my flat and the garage and therefore the garage party and travel around the world and live out of a rucksack and be a digital nomad. So, I spent a year and a half just travelling from conference to conference in the digital marketing world, giving talks, doing interviews for my own podcast, living out of a rucksack, and I absolutely loved it. It was about a year and four or five months, with nowhere particular to live, living in hotels and Airbnb, staying on people’s floors, and then COVID hit and unfortunately I had to stop. Yeah. Screwed everyone, everybody, but I had to stop.
[00:48:32] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): And so, this flat is actually my daughter’s flat. I still don’t have a flat. And this is really lovely because she’s 25 now. I got, as a father, to live with my daughter for two years as an adult. And that’s been absolutely wonderful because we get on really well. And she was, oh, there you go. Now I didn’t get to do a master’s. She’s done a master’s. She’s really smart. And so, I got to read her master’s and go through it with her and discuss her master’s with her and help her with the phrasing of things so that it read a little bit more smoothly. She’s brilliant. She’s got great ideas. She really expresses them well. And I had the immense pleasure of spending. In fact, she did two master’s thesis and spent, probably about a month spending pretty much every day, a couple of hours a day, just working through it with her and reading it. And wow, that’s not a gig, but it’s one of my favourite moments in life.
Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy) on Specialising in Brand SERPs and Writing a Book About It
[00:49:39] Tim Heale: Yes. So bring us right up to date. What are you up to at the moment?
[00:49:45] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Yeah. I now specialise in Brand SERPs, and I wrote this delightful book. And somebody told me I should be smacked around the head for calling it The Fundamentals of Brand SERPs for Business. He said that’s a rarely boring title. And he’s right. It’s very boring because basically what it’s saying is we need to educate Google. Google is a child. In fact, all of these machines, Twitter, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft, Amazon, they all have built these machines that are trying to understand the world. And they’re all basically children. And it’s our job as responsible adults to educate these children about our little corner of the world.
[00:50:28] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): So in this particular case, we’re talking about Google, but it goes for any of these massive machines is they will understand what they find online. We need to manage what our entity identity, you could call it, what our digital ecosystem is, what it contains so that these machines can understand who we are, what we do, and who our audience is. In which case, they can actually do useful things with the information. So, far from being this scary, big machine where everybody’s trying to rank top to get traffic to their websites to sell lots of products, turn it around and say, Google is a child, we need to educate it, and educating it is surprisingly simple.
Talking About Their Target Audience and the Purpose of What They Are Doing
[00:51:11] Tim Heale: Well, Alex came out with something the other week on his second event. And he started off by saying you need to work out who your avatar is.
[00:51:23] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Yeah.
[00:51:24] Tim Heale: To which I replied my avatar hasn’t been born yet.
[00:51:31] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Right. Okay. So your audience.
[00:51:35] Tim Heale: Since my audience hasn’t been born yet, and the reason they haven’t been born yet is because what I’m doing is ordinary people’s extraordinary stories. In a hundred years’ time, kids are going to be at school looking back at this time in history. And they’ll be looking at what we did in this period at the time period and thinking, wow, is that how it all started for them? Because the reason I got into it is because I was doing ancestry. I came across my grandfather or my great-grandfather who lived across the harbour from where I live now in Portsmouth. He was a chief stoker in the rural navy. And I thought it would’ve been great if I had a time machine to go back and have a chat with him about his life. That’s lost.
[00:52:28] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Yeah.
[00:52:29] Tim Heale: When we got into lockdown, my friends were far too much space from me. I’m good. And I sat down and thought, whoa. Why don’t I tell my story, then my story won’t be lost? So, I started off the 24 half an hour episodes of my life, got to the end of it, did a couple more in-depth. Once I got to the end of it, think what do we do now? So, I started off with my mother and I haven’t looked back.
[00:53:03] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Brilliant is a word I would use just from the idea of the perspective and the way you’re coming at it is saying…
Making an Archive of Stories for the Future Generation
[00:53:10] Tim Heale: And the other part of it is I ain’t bothered whether I make any money out it or not. I’m retired. I can scrape by my pension. So, I’m not interested in monetising it. I’m interested in interviewing as many people as possible to leave a legacy for future generations, so they’ll look at this time in history and have an idea of what life was like now.
[00:53:41] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Yeah. So, that for me is really, I really, really like that because you’re making an archive of a set of lives that we didn’t have in the past. The whole thing about VHS, and even if you just look back to the 70s, 80s, and even 90s, we’ve got these VHSs and they have time lapses that the actual material they’re built on won’t last forever. So, all these people who’ve put stuff into boxes and then buried them, that’s pooped, isn’t it. Whereas all of this digital stuff, theoretically can go on forever. And then it’s just a question being able to play the format back and create that archive, start with yourself, then your mother, and then lots of other people. Absolutely lovely. And I’m very, very pleased and proud to be part of your archive of 2022 for the people. Hello, everybody in 2032, 2042, 2052 and 2122.
[00:54:37] Tim Heale: Yeah. It’s been a privilege. It’s been an absolute joy listening to your stories. It’s fascinating. You’ve just kept bouncing back.
[00:54:47] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): Yeah, no, thank you. It’s been an absolute delight talking to you. You asked a few questions and I’ve blabbered on. I get the feeling I’ve talked way too much, but…
[00:54:55] Tim Heale: No, no. It’s your story.
[00:54:58] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): That’s true. Oh, thank you. That makes me feel much better. Thanks a lot, Tim. That was absolutely delightful. It was lovely just walking through my life in a chronological and simple manner and telling some of the funest stories from it.
[00:55:15] Tim Heale: Brilliant. Thank you so much for sharing.
[00:55:19] Jason Barnard (The Brand SERP Guy): See you later, Tim. Thanks.
[00:55:20] Narrator: The Tim Heale Podcasts: Ordinary people’s extraordinary stories.
Published by The Tim Heale Thirsty Thursday Live Stream Trailer June 26, 2022. Host: Tim Heale Guest: Jason Barnard, founder and CEO at Kalicube.
