Interview with Jason Barnard, CEO of Kalicube
Adapted Transcript
Q: Can you share a little bit about your personal background and how you arrived at your current work with the brand narrative and AI?
Jason Barnard speaking: My journey began in the UK, where I spent my formative years. I then attended Liverpool University, and it was there, alongside my studies, that I immersed myself in the vibrant music scene. I became a musician, singing in a blues band called Stanley the Counting Horse.
Jason Barnard speaking: This was a truly enriching experience, and a particular highlight was playing at the legendary Cavern Club, a venue steeped in musical history as the place where The Beatles famously performed.
Jason Barnard speaking: Interestingly, I also attended the same university as John Lennon, although our times there didn’t overlap.
Jason Barnard speaking: Following my time in Liverpool, I moved to Paris, where my musical path took another turn. I joined a punk folk band called The Barking Dogs. In this band, I played the double bass and also contributed as a singer.
Jason Barnard speaking: This period was incredibly fulfilling, and for a decade, The Barking Dogs toured extensively across Europe. We also had the rewarding experience of releasing four albums and performing in front of substantial audiences, likely around 150,000 people in total.
Jason Barnard speaking: This was a professional career for me, making me a professional punk folk double bass player and singer.
Jason Barnard speaking: This diverse background in music and performance, requiring connection with an audience and building a persona, undoubtedly laid some groundwork for my later interest in narrative and brand.
Q: In your work with Boowa and Kwala, what contributed to its success?
Jason Barnard speaking: The success of Boowa and Kwala, the children’s website I created with my ex-wife Veronique Barnard, stemmed from a dual approach.
Jason Barnard speaking: Firstly, I strategically focused on optimizing for Google as a search engine to drive a significant amount of traffic to the site.
Jason Barnard speaking: Secondly, and perhaps more crucially, we implemented a strong branded marketing strategy. “Boowa and Kwala” evolved into an incredibly powerful brand by specifically targeting the right audience: the adults in children’s lives – babysitters, schools, parents, and grandparents.
Jason Barnard speaking: These individuals were the gatekeepers who would introduce Boowa and Kwala to the children. Once introduced, the characters and the website resonated deeply with the children, fostering a strong enthusiasm for Boowa and Kwala.
Jason Barnard speaking: Looking back at it as a brand, it possessed an immense amount of personal and emotional attraction for its audience. This emotional connection was the core power that propelled Boowa and Kwala’s growth.
Jason Barnard speaking: The website grew incredibly, eventually hosting a thousand games and attracting an ever-increasing number of child visitors, peaking at 60 million visits and a staggering one billion page views in one year.
Jason Barnard speaking: This phenomenal reach was directly attributable to the very, very strong brand attachment we cultivated.
Jason Barnard speaking: This experience highlighted the power of understanding an audience’s emotional drivers and building a brand that resonates with them, lessons that are highly relevant to crafting effective brand narratives today.
Q: After Boowa and Kwala, what led you to pivot to digital marketing and focus on brand narrative?
Jason Barnard speaking: My transition to digital marketing and a focus on brand narrative occurred after I exited UpToTen, the company that owned Boowa and Kwala. This happened in 2011.
Jason Barnard speaking: As I began to pitch my services to potential clients and investors in this new field, I encountered a significant obstacle. I realized I was consistently losing deals, and the financial impact was substantial – hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Jason Barnard speaking: The pattern was clear: I would have successful face-to-face meetings, build rapport, and leave my business card. However, as soon as I left, these individuals would invariably Google my name.
Jason Barnard speaking: The top search result at that time identified me as “Jason Barnard is the voice over artist for Boo-ah the Blue Dog in a cartoon for children.”
Jason Barnard speaking: This seemingly innocuous piece of information completely eroded the credibility and authority I had painstakingly built during our in-person meeting.
Jason Barnard speaking: The perception was that I was primarily a children’s entertainer, not a serious digital marketing professional or entrepreneur.
Jason Barnard speaking: This direct and negative impact on my business made it abundantly clear that I needed to take immediate action to change the narrative that Google was presenting about me.
Jason Barnard speaking: This experience was the catalyst for my deep dive into understanding and manipulating online brand narratives.
Q: How did you address the issue of Google’s perception of you?
Jason Barnard speaking: Recognizing the damage being done to my professional image, I strategically applied the skills and insights I had gained from building Boowa and Kwala into a hugely successful international brand that competed with giants like Disney, PBS, and the BBC.
Jason Barnard speaking: My goal was to actively shape Google’s perception of me.
Jason Barnard speaking: I focused on ensuring that when someone searched for my name, Google would primarily present me as a digital marketer and an entrepreneur, and only secondarily mention my past role as the voice of Boo-Wah the Blue Dog.
Jason Barnard speaking: This involved optimizing my online presence, creating content, and building associations that highlighted my expertise in digital marketing and my track record as a successful entrepreneur with two businesses behind me – Boowa and Kwala and my emerging digital marketing endeavors.
Jason Barnard speaking: This proactive approach worked incredibly well. Business began to flow in because when people searched my name, they found Google presenting me as an authority in digital marketing and a successful entrepreneur.
Jason Barnard speaking: The presence of a prominent knowledge panel at the top of the search results served as Google’s “stamp of approval,” further reinforcing this narrative.
Jason Barnard speaking: People trusted Google’s assessment.
Jason Barnard speaking: Google was effectively saying, “This person has a knowledge panel and is an authority on digital marketing and a successful entrepreneur. Oh, and by the way, he was also a cartoon blue dog and a musician.”
Jason Barnard speaking: This meant that potential clients were seeing the brand narrative I wanted them to see, and I was, in effect, being recommended by Google itself.
Jason Barnard speaking: This experience underscored the immense power of controlling your online narrative and how search engines can significantly influence professional credibility.
Q: What prompted you to create Kalicube?
Jason Barnard speaking: The creation of Kalicube was a direct result of my personal experience in needing to manage and correct my own online brand narrative.
Jason Barnard speaking: I realized that this wasn’t a unique problem. For any individual who has a public profile – whether they are an author, an actor, or any kind of public figure – what Google says about them when someone searches their name is phenomenally important.
Jason Barnard speaking: Furthermore, for businesses, this is particularly critical at the bottom of the marketing funnel.
Jason Barnard speaking: People who are searching for a specific business name are typically in the final stages of considering doing business with that entity in some way.
Jason Barnard speaking: Therefore, the information they find needs to be accurate and compelling.
Jason Barnard speaking: Recognizing this widespread need, I created Kalicube with the specific aim of providing a service that helps individuals and businesses take control of their online brand representation.
Jason Barnard speaking: I understood the power of Google’s perception and wanted to empower others to shape it effectively.
Q: What is the core function of Kalicube?
Jason Barnard speaking: The core function of Kalicube is to empower individuals, primarily entrepreneurs and business leaders, to ensure that Google and AI present the version of themselves and their brand narrative that they desire.
Jason Barnard speaking: We achieve this by building and leveraging the largest independently held dataset of brand signals from Google and AI, which currently comprises over 3 billion data points.
Jason Barnard speaking: This vast dataset allows us to analyze where these intelligent machines are sourcing their information about individuals and companies.
Jason Barnard speaking: We’ve developed proprietary algorithms that sift through this data to understand the specific sources that Google, and increasingly AI, are using to form their understanding and decide how to represent a particular person or organization.
Jason Barnard speaking: By understanding these mechanisms, we can then help our clients strategically manage their digital footprint to influence these representations positively.
Jason Barnard speaking: Ultimately, Kalicube aims to bridge the gap between how individuals and businesses want to be seen and how they are actually perceived by search engines and AI.
Q: How does your system work across different AI engines?
Jason Barnard speaking: The effectiveness of the Kalicube process across various AI engines stems from a fundamental principle: they all largely rely on the same primary data source – the web.
Jason Barnard speaking: AI models like ChatGPT, Perplexity, and Copilot, along with search engines like Google Search and Bing Search, crawl and index the vast expanse of the internet to gather information.
Jason Barnard speaking: Because the system I initially developed to manage my own brand narrative, and which now underpins Kalicube’s methodologies, focuses on strategically shaping and optimizing your digital footprint on the web, it inherently influences how all these platforms understand and represent you.
Jason Barnard speaking: By controlling my digital footprint – the information I publish and the way I am referenced online – I effectively control the raw data that these engines use to learn about me.
Jason Barnard speaking: Therefore, whether it’s Bing Search, Google Search, ChatGPT, Copilot, Gemini, Perplexity, or any new engine that emerges (like DeepSeek), they consistently encounter my brand narrative as I intend it to be seen because they are all drawing from the same foundational source: the web.
Jason Barnard speaking: This control over my digital footprint translates to control over their understanding of me, which is a significant form of power in the digital age.
Q: How does your experience in children’s education relate to educating machines?
Jason Barnard speaking: I’ve often drawn a parallel between educating Google and educating a child.
Jason Barnard speaking: In essence, Google, and now AI, can be viewed as a child with an insatiable curiosity, constantly striving to understand the entirety of the world, including each one of us, every company, and every product.
Jason Barnard speaking: Consider Google Maps, for example; it’s a system designed to understand the physical world, mapping out shops, streets, and geographical locations.
Jason Barnard speaking: However, it’s also continually evolving to understand the more nuanced aspects of our world – the people, the companies, and what we do.
Jason Barnard speaking: This is the underlying goal of Google’s Knowledge Graph, a massive, machine-readable encyclopedia, similar in concept to Wikipedia but exponentially larger.
Jason Barnard speaking: Currently, it holds information on approximately 54 billion entities (people, corporations, products, etc.) and around a thousand billion facts.
Jason Barnard speaking: When you frame it from the perspective of this “child” – Google or AI – trying to fill its encyclopedia with knowledge about everything in the universe or world, we, as individuals and businesses, have the ability to teach it, to educate it about our specific corner of the internet, which constitutes our world in the digital realm.
Jason Barnard speaking: My experience creating games and educational content for Boowa and Kwala was fundamentally about showing a child the world and explaining it in a very clear and accessible way, enabling them to associate new information with their existing understanding.
Jason Barnard speaking: This is precisely the approach we take with Google and AI.
Jason Barnard speaking: We present them with new information in a clear and structured manner and strategically link it to concepts and entities they already understand.
Jason Barnard speaking: This mirroring of human learning processes – associating the new with the known – is key.
Jason Barnard speaking: Therefore, Google and AI are like children eager to learn about the world, and our role is to guide them in understanding our particular brand narrative.
Jason Barnard speaking: Our “little corner of the internet” needs to be optimized to educate these machines, much like we would carefully educate a child.
Q: Why is controlling brand narrative fundamental in the AI era?
Jason Barnard speaking: Controlling brand narrative in the AI era transcends mere marketing; I would argue it’s fundamentally existential.
Jason Barnard speaking: How Google and AI understand you is becoming increasingly central to virtually every aspect of our modern digital lives.
Jason Barnard speaking: Consider the evolution of search. Initially, with Google, it was primarily about users actively seeking information by typing in queries and receiving a list of options, with Google’s aim being to present the most relevant result at the top.
Jason Barnard speaking: However, the landscape has shifted dramatically with the emergence of AI-powered assistive engines like ChatGPT, Perplexity, Google Gemini, and Microsoft Copilot.
Jason Barnard speaking: In this new paradigm, users are engaging in conversations with these machines.
Jason Barnard speaking: This conversational nature empowers the AI to introduce new ideas, topics, people, and corporations into the dialogue.
Jason Barnard speaking: The manner in which they do this is directly contingent on how well they have understood your brand narrative – what you do, who you serve, and why you are the best solution.
Jason Barnard speaking: But the implications extend even further.
Jason Barnard speaking: As AI becomes more deeply integrated into our daily routines, the opportunities for these machines to introduce a person or a corporation (you or your company) into their conversations with users will only amplify.
Jason Barnard speaking: A compelling example is the integration of Gemini into Google Docs or Copilot into Windows.
Jason Barnard speaking: In these contexts, the AI has the potential to proactively push information or suggestions to the user.
Jason Barnard speaking: For instance, if someone is composing a Google Doc about knowledge panels, Google Gemini could suggest a piece of my content, identifying me as a world expert on the topic, deeming it potentially helpful to the user.
Jason Barnard speaking: This represents a significant shift where my personal brand is being introduced into someone’s workflow by AI, without them even initiating a search.
Jason Barnard speaking: This illustrates three distinct levels of impact: traditional search where the user actively seeks information and your brand narrative needs to be accurately reflected; AI assistive engines where the conversation between user and machine presents opportunities to introduce your brand; and AI integrated into software and hardware, offering a “push” opportunity where the machine can initiate the introduction of your brand into a conversation.
Jason Barnard speaking: This is a profound difference.
Jason Barnard speaking: Therefore, ensuring these machines understand who you are, what you do, who you serve, and that you are perceived as the most credible solution to a specific problem where you can genuinely assist the user, is paramount.
Jason Barnard speaking: Having the content that enables these machines to suggest your specific, helpful content is the key to navigating the future of AI.
Jason Barnard speaking: My brand narrative within Google, AI, ChatGPT, Copilot, and Perplexity is not just important; it’s fundamental to the very survival and success of my business in this evolving digital ecosystem.
Q: How did your background in statistical analysis and economics play in your current methodologies?
Jason Barnard speaking: My academic background at Liverpool John Moores University, where I studied economics and statistical analysis, has proven to be remarkably influential in my current work, particularly with Kalicube.
Jason Barnard speaking: At the time, in 1998, statistical analysis was in its early stages of computerization, often involving rudimentary interfaces with green text on screen.
Jason Barnard speaking: However, my core strength that emerged during this period was the ability to analyze vast datasets and discern underlying patterns.
Jason Barnard speaking: I developed a keen eye for identifying what was illogical or didn’t align with extrapolations from the data.
Jason Barnard speaking: This skill has been incredibly valuable at Kalicube, where we manage a dataset of 3 billion brand signals.
Jason Barnard speaking: With such an immense volume of data, one of the primary challenges is ensuring a comprehensive understanding of how it was collected and what it encompasses.
Jason Barnard speaking: Consider a company like SEMrush, which deals with trillions upon trillions of data points.
Jason Barnard speaking: When a user queries such a massive database, there’s often a lack of clarity about the precise nature and construction of the data they are accessing.
Jason Barnard speaking: In contrast, with Kalicube’s extensive dataset of brand signals from Google and AI, collected meticulously over a decade, I personally oversaw its collection and organized it within a relational database.
Jason Barnard speaking: This means I possess a deep and granular understanding of how every piece of data fits together.
Jason Barnard speaking: I can confidently vouch for the absolute cleanliness and integrity of our data.
Jason Barnard speaking: Consequently, when numbers are generated from a query I might make, I can immediately assess their plausibility based on my intimate knowledge of the database’s contents.
Jason Barnard speaking: I’ve even had direct experience with SEMrush, for instance, where I requested specific data, received it, and could immediately identify that it was nonsensical based on my understanding of search engine results pages.
Jason Barnard speaking: One example was their claim that 40% of SERPs have image boxes, which was patently untrue.
Jason Barnard speaking: The underlying issue, we later discovered, was that the person querying the database hadn’t specified a focus on page one results, so the data included results from multiple pages.
Jason Barnard speaking: While it turned out that within the first ten pages, 40% did have image boxes, my query was specifically about the crucial first page.
Jason Barnard speaking: This anecdote highlights a critical point: when data collection, analysis, and usage are handled by different individuals or teams, a disconnect can easily occur.
Jason Barnard speaking: At Kalicube, with our 3 billion data points and my background in statistical analysis, I personally handle all three stages – collection, analysis, and use – eliminating this potential for error and misinterpretation.
Jason Barnard speaking: Therefore, I firmly believe that Kalicube’s data is inherently more reliable precisely because the same person oversees its entire lifecycle.
Q: Can you explain the process you’ve developed from gathering three billion data points about search and assistive engines?
Jason Barnard speaking: Yes, the process we’ve developed at Kalicube, which underpins how we leverage our 3 billion data points, is called the Kalicube Process. It’s structured around three core pillars: Understandability, Credibility, and Deliverability.
Jason Barnard speaking: Understandability focuses on ensuring that machines – Google, ChatGPT, Gemini, and others – clearly understand who you are, what you do, and who you serve.
Jason Barnard speaking: Our extensive dataset allows us to pinpoint where these machines are currently sourcing their information and, crucially, to identify that the trusted sources can vary significantly depending on the specific entity – be it a person, corporation, product, or even a music album.
Jason Barnard speaking: Our data demonstrably shows that you can be an absolute authority on a very specific topic even if you aren’t generally perceived as a broad authority.
Jason Barnard speaking: A perfect example is myself: today, I am the absolute authority for information about The Barking Dogs, my former music group, and about Boowa and Kwala.
Jason Barnard speaking: In these specific domains, my authority surpasses that of generalist music sites like Music Brains or even a broad information database like IMDB, which would typically be seen as more authoritative overall.
Jason Barnard speaking: Our data clearly illustrates this, and we can pinpoint exactly where Google and AI are obtaining information and which sources they consider authoritative.
Jason Barnard speaking: The recent Google leak from 2024 even refers to the concept of a “reference page,” and our data at Kalicube allows us to identify these specific pages that Google’s algorithms use as key references for knowledge and understanding.
Jason Barnard speaking: The second pillar is Credibility, which is about demonstrating to the machine that we are a credible source for the specific users we claim to serve.
Jason Barnard speaking: This has evolved beyond simply accumulating links, although links still hold some weight as indicators of popularity and probability.
Jason Barnard speaking: For an individual, demonstrating credibility can involve showcasing awards, connections to reputable individuals, past work with respected companies, academic publications, books authored, and contributions to authoritative websites – focusing on the credibility of the entity behind the website itself.
Jason Barnard speaking: For instance, a mention on Forbes.com carries significant weight because Forbes is an established and recognized brand.
Jason Barnard speaking: Ultimately, credibility begins with explicitly stating your expertise and then providing verifiable proof to support those claims.
Jason Barnard speaking: For example, my expertise in knowledge panels is substantiated by numerous articles published on respected media outlets like Search Engine Journal, Search Engine Land, Forbes, and Entrepreneur, as well as my appearances on relevant podcasts where the hosts implicitly endorse my knowledge, and the publication of my book on the subject.
Jason Barnard speaking: All of these elements contribute to building my credibility as a knowledge panel expert in the eyes of the machines.
Jason Barnard speaking: Finally, Deliverability comes into play once the machines understand who you are, what you do, who you serve, and recognize your credibility.
Jason Barnard speaking: At this stage, they need to have access to your content to be able to deliver you as a solution to the relevant subset of their users – your target audience.
Jason Barnard speaking: This necessitates publishing a variety of content formats, including videos, audio, images, and text, that allows the machines to cite you, quote you, and ultimately present you to the users who are most likely to benefit from your expertise or offerings.
Jason Barnard speaking: In essence, the Kalicube process – Understandability, Credibility, and Deliverability – provides a future-proof and universally applicable digital marketing strategy for navigating the complexities.
