The Algorithmic Trinity ft. Daniel Ramsey & Jason Barnard | MyOutDesk x Kalicube
Published by: MyOutDesk. Host: Daniel Ramsey. Guest: Jason Barnard, Founder and CEO of Kalicube®. August 7, 2025
Listen here: The Algorithmic Trinity ft. Daniel Ramsey & Jason Barnard | MyOutDesk x Kalicube®
In this expert-level sit-down, MyOutDesk CEO Daniel Ramsey teams up with Jason Barnard of Kalicube to unpack the rise of AI Assistive Engines - and what it means for your brand, business, and future in search. From the death of traditional SEO to the rise of AI agents that make decisions for users, this episode explores how brands can survive the shift and dominate the digital landscape.
- Why SEO is no longer enough
- How AI Assistive Engines are changing the game
- What business owners must do to stay relevant
- The power of personal branding in the age of AI
- “Claim. Frame. Proof.” - The new blueprint for digital authority
The Algorithmic Trinity ft. Daniel Ramsey & Jason Barnard | MyOutDesk x Kalicube
The Algorithmic Trinity
[00:00:00] Jason Barnard: And when you look at AI Assistive Engines, you call them the AI gods, I call ’em the AI Assistive Engines. They work on what I call the Algorithmic Trinity. Every single one has the same foundation of three technologies, whether it’s ChatGPT, Perplexity, Google AI mode, Copilot in every circumstance in Gmail, in Windows, they work on search engine results.
[00:00:26] Jason Barnard: So SEO isn’t yet dead. Yep. Knowledge Graphs for fact checking and LLM chat bots to be able to have the conversation. And if you optimize for all three, you win the game.
Generative Engine Optimization vs AI Assistive Engine Optimization
[00:00:46] Daniel Ramsey: I’ve been told Jason that I have to ask you about GEO
[00:00:49] Jason Barnard: Oh Generative Engine Optimization. Very exciting. Who
[00:00:53] Daniel Ramsey: Told you that? I’m a really smart guy that I work with. What do you is that the best term [00:01:00] that we should talk about or is there another one?
[00:01:02] Jason Barnard: It’s the current most popular term, and my reading of it is that it’s gonna be very quickly outdated and that focusing on that is a mistake.
[00:01:13] Jason Barnard: What’s a better, what’s a better term? AI Assistive Engine Optimization. I can tell you why. That’s what this.
[00:01:21] Daniel Ramsey: Podcast is all about. So
[00:01:22] Jason Barnard: GEO is Generative Engine Optimization and they’re focusing on the idea of this generative AI that takes text, images, and voice and video, and they’re right it’s super smart and it does bring it all together.
[00:01:37] Jason Barnard: But actually at the end of the day, we’re optimizing for Assistive Engines that are driven by AI and the fact that they’re generative. In a year’s time, it’s gonna be completely normal. People are gonna stop thinking. It used to be old text. Forever when it’s gonna become, oh, audio, video, text, images, all put together, multimodal.
[00:01:57] Jason Barnard: That’s completely normal. So saying [00:02:00] generative engine now makes sense, but in a year’s time, my bet is it will be so obvious that the idea that it’s an assistive engine will be more important.
Why AI Assistive Engines Matter for Business Owners
[00:02:11] Daniel Ramsey: That’s interesting. Why do you think that this matters for a business owner?
[00:02:17] Jason Barnard: Because the implication or Generative Engine Optimization is geek talk AI, Assistive Engine Optimization makes sense.
[00:02:25] Jason Barnard: And AI Assistive Engines are going to be, in fact, already are integrated into Google Docs, Windows, Gmail. They’re gonna be assisting you proactively. And, they’re gonna be pushing content to you. So your brand mentions are not just when people are explicitly searching for you, implicitly searching for you, because they’re searching around your topic and you might get a mention, you might get a recommendation from them, but also ambiently, potentially pushing your brand into Google [00:03:00] Docs, Gmail, Windows, whichever one it may be.
[00:03:03] Jason Barnard: And that last part, the ambient research is the thing that everybody’s missing. It won’t, today, not a big deal. Five years time it’s gonna be a huge deal.
[00:03:13] Daniel Ramsey: Yeah. But why, see, I’m going back to like why it matters for business owners and I’m just curious, like in your perspective what’s the point?
[00:03:25] Jason Barnard: Because we’ve become so used to the idea that people search for solutions. We’re moving into a, an area where they research for solutions, using, using chat, GPT, Google Gemini, Google AI mode, whatever. It’s, and we’re gonna become as human beings, lazier and lazier. And if you think about Wally, if you’ve seen the cartoon.
[00:03:49] Jason Barnard: Yeah, we’re gonna become really lazy and we’re gonna expect Copilot, Gemini, ChatGPT when we’re sitting in Google Docs or in Windows to just put it on a plateau. What do [00:04:00] I need to do? Who’s gonna solve this problem for me?
The Agentic AI Future
[00:04:03] Daniel Ramsey: You know what’s interesting is as you say that I, I’m annoyed by my daughter sent me.
[00:04:09] Daniel Ramsey: An email and said, Hey dad, here’s what I think you should do. And I looked at it and I was like, did you read this? She goes, no. I just searched it up on chat. And I, and so there’s this disconnect. ’cause I think you’re right. I think we’re all going to have this silliness where the AI gods are telling us how to think and what to do, and there’s this huge place, like they’re usually wrong.
[00:04:37] Daniel Ramsey: Right now anyways, when it comes to real information. So what’s what’s your perspective on that?
[00:04:44] Jason Barnard: So we need to organize ourselves to be relevant today in search because Google still dominates with search relevant today in AI assistive engine research. And that’s the funnel within ChatGPT AI mode, Copilot, [00:05:00] and be ready for the day when Agentic AI and.
[00:05:06] Jason Barnard: In app AI is going to be making the decision. So your daughter’s example is a great example, is at some point in the near future, I’m gonna say, book me a ticket for a plane to Los Angeles to go and to go for a conference on the 17th, September. And the agenda AI will make the decision. So how the, the Agentic AI understands my brand, the offers of the AIrline is going to be fundamentally important.
[00:05:34] Jason Barnard: And the human supervision from my side is going to be minimal. So we’re not even looking at search and research, we’re looking at ambient action taken by an AI agent. We’re not there yet, and we’re a long way, maybe several years, but seven that, sorry, you said seven more years. Several. Oh, several. How many years?
[00:05:58] Jason Barnard: I’m hedging my bets. I don’t wanna [00:06:00] say two. I don’t wanna say seven. Several covers a whole host.
Introducing Kalicube and its Mission
[00:06:05] Daniel Ramsey: That’s funny. Well, Jason, we should start this podcast. Can you just kind of kick out like who you are, what you do, and then like how you got into this game? ’cause I think it’s really interesting.
[00:06:16] Jason Barnard: Yeah, my name’s Jason Barnard.
[00:06:18] Jason Barnard: My company is Kalicube, and our primary goal is to help ambitious entrepreneurs who are already investing in their Personal brand online through podcast appearances, having their own podcast like yours, writing books, guest, guest posting, having a LinkedIn strategy, having a YouTube strategy to take control of their brand narrative and amplify their voice.
[00:06:42] Jason Barnard: In search and AI Assistive Engines such as Google, Bing, ChatGPT, Perplexity, and tho those people are the people we can serve the best. You are investing in your Personal brand. You want to amplify the return and investment of that investment that you are making. [00:07:00] And then for the people who don’t have that the means to do that, we give it all away for free here.
[00:07:07] Jason Barnard: I believe that the solution we found, which is how to control your brand narrative and amplify your voice in AI Assistive Engines like ChatGPT, Perplexity, Google AI mode Microsoft Co-Pilot is an existential problem for us all and that everybody has the right to be able to control what these machines know and say about them.
[00:07:32] Jason Barnard: So we give it away for free to anybody who actually just wants to do it themselves.
The Algorithmic Trinity in Detail
[00:07:36] Daniel Ramsey: What’s , it’s curious. It’s an interesting space. Like you guys are at the tip of the spear and we have a funny relationship ’cause we hired you for SEO work and then as we actually started diving in, what we learned is the AI gods, I like to call ’em AI gods ’cause it feels like the appropriate word for them.
[00:07:59] Daniel Ramsey: As [00:08:00] we’re diving in and doing the work, what I quickly realized, and I think you pivoted and realized too, was SEO was the old game and AI was, is the new game. And so you’re like on that frontier of that transition where, companies used to be like, oh, we have an SEO strategy now.
[00:08:18] Daniel Ramsey: Companies need to say, I have an AI strategy. And right. That’s not yet caught on for most business owners. It’s
[00:08:26] Jason Barnard: starting to catch on, and this year has been so far a turning point for us is that my sales calls are no longer me explaining to somebody why this is important, what they need to do and that it isn’t just Google anymore or it isn’t just Google search anymore.
[00:08:43] Jason Barnard: People come to the sales calls saying, I understand what the situation is. I understand that SEO isn’t enough. What can you do? And that’s been a huge change this year. So it is starting to get through to everybody. And one thing about SEO, which I find interesting, [00:09:00] is that it is still relevant to a certAIn extent.
[00:09:03] Jason Barnard: So SEO is not dead. SEO is just not as important as it used to be. And when you look at AI Assistive Engines. You call them the AI gods, I call ’em the AI Assistive Engines. They work on what I call the Algorithmic Trinity. Every single one has the same foundation of three technologies, whether it’s ChatGPT, PT Perplexity, Google AI mode, co-pilot.
[00:09:27] Jason Barnard: In every circumstance in Gmail, in Windows, they work on search engine results. So SEO isn’t yet dead. Yep. Knowledge Graph for fact checking. An LLM chatbots to be able to have the conversation. And if you optimize for all three, you win the game. If you’re optimizing just for SEO, you lose the game because SEO is all about search results.
[00:09:53] Jason Barnard: But search results are now being summarized by the LLM chatbot chat, GPT, for example. [00:10:00] Mm-hmm. And one of their problems is hallucinations. They get it wrong. So they need the Knowledge Graph, which is an encyclopedia of facts. Tens of thousands of times bigger than Wikipedia that they can fact check to make sure they’re not making a mistake.
[00:10:17] Jason Barnard: So you need to be in the Knowledge Graph as a fact, you need to be in the LLM so that it can converse about you directly without having to look you up on the internet. And when it doesn’t know enough, it then looks you up on the internet. Or if it’s recent information, it will look up on the internet.
[00:10:31] Jason Barnard: So it’s like a child, the LLM chat bot will have a conversation with you if it happens to know the answer, it will just give it to you off the top of its head. If it isn’t sure, it will look it up in the encyclopedia. If the news is too recent or it doesn’t know, it will then go and look on the web, go and look in the school library, let’s say.
[00:10:50] Jason Barnard: So those three phases are absolutely essential and you are talking to a child that you can educate or the user rather is talking to a [00:11:00] child that you can educate for your brand so that it gives the right answer at the right time, puts you in front of the right people at the right time in there. By a journey.
[00:11:09] Jason Barnard: And one of the things to realize if you’ve used ChatGPT extensively is a lot of the time you’re going down a funnel from awareness to consideration to decision. That’s what it’s designed to do.
How to Win in the AI Game Daniel
[00:11:22] Daniel Ramsey: One thing, how do you train the LLM chat bots? Like what exactly do you do? Can you break it down for the audience so that they understand?
[00:11:32] Daniel Ramsey: Because SEO I get you get. You make sure your website looks pretty, you make sure it’s readable, it’s usable, all the information is accessible. That one’s easy Knowledge Panel. More business owners understand that. But the chat bot, LLM training, that’s a brand new concept, maybe only appropriate in 2025, right?
[00:11:54] Daniel Ramsey: Yeah. So what does that look like? What does that work look like? If you’re giving, you know, an [00:12:00] entrepreneur or somebody who’s a new business person or a new marketing person. Uh, a basic level to an advanced level understanding.
[00:12:10] Jason Barnard: Well, the LLM chatbot is trained on an enormous set of data, and it isn’t trained every day.
[00:12:19] Jason Barnard: It’s retrained every three months, every six months. It depends on the model, it depends on the company. So whatever information is in today is gonna be there for the next three months, and it’s gonna rely on that information for, let’s say, three months. If you want to be in its snap memory, you need to be in that data set so that it can immediately say off the top of its head.
[00:12:41] Jason Barnard: I know Daniel Ramsey is the CEO of My Outdesk, and he’s an amazing guy who runs an amazing company with a great service. Yep. If it can do that, it always will and it won’t bother looking in the Knowledge Graph and it won’t bother looking at the search results and you’ve won the game off the bat, but you have to be patient.[00:13:00]
[00:13:00] Jason Barnard: Now, where does it get that information is the key question. It gets it from the web. If it needs to fact check, it isn’t sure which Daniel Ramsey we’re talking about. It can go look in the Knowledge Graph. If you’re in the Knowledge Graph, it can then check and say, okay, I’m sure it’s this Daniel Ramsey.
[00:13:18] Jason Barnard: I’m sure that this is what he does. This is his company is My Outdesk. The Knowledge Graph also takes all of its data or most of its data from the internet. Then if you are asking, what did Daniel Ramsey do yesterday? It will look in the search results because it’s recent and once agAIn, the information comes from the web.
[00:13:41] Jason Barnard: Going through that process, you can immediately see the only thing you need to do is manage your own digital footprint. And that’s what we do at Kalicube. That’s what we do with you and with my outdesk, is say, how do we optimize your entire digital footprint? So the LLM chat bot, the Knowledge Graph, and the [00:14:00] search results all.
[00:14:02] Jason Barnard: Support your brand narrative and support the machine’s ability to present you to the subset of their users who are your audience at the critical moments in the funnel. That’s good business. That’s the future of
[00:14:15] Daniel Ramsey: Search Wild. There’s also this future where at some point I’ll have my own agent.
[00:14:22] Daniel Ramsey: Yeah. And I, I’m curious about your perspective around that, because right now I think you’re absolutely right. I go into, Claude or Copilot or whatever, and I put in a search and then it’s doing all those checks. But at some point, I’m gonna have the Daniel Ramsey agent, who understands my preferences, understands who I am, understands what I like in the world, ’cause I’ve trained it to be, and they’re gonna be going out to all the different AI Gods.
[00:14:51] Daniel Ramsey: To try to do work on my behalf, then they’re gonna reconcile all that work. And then give me one answer based on what they believe is the right [00:15:00] answer. What happens to like your work when the agent is the go-between versus the actual LLM right now? Chat bots.
[00:15:13] Jason Barnard: Which is a great question. The agent is still going out onto the internet to figure out what it needs to do.
[00:15:20] Jason Barnard: What will happen is increasingly, it will use its own internal knowledge, which is why you need to absolutely dominate and absolutely optimize your digital footprint today, because that’s gonna be set in stone and we’re moving towards a world of walled gardens. Now, I remember back at the beginning of the two thousands.
[00:15:40] Jason Barnard: Walled gardens. A OL is the classic example. Try and close the user into your walled garden. You get control of them. They can never get out, and you can make as much money as you possibly can out of them, and that’s what a A OL tried to do. And look what happened to them. All of the big tech are building walled gardens.
[00:15:57] Jason Barnard: 2.0 I call them now. [00:16:00] And what’s gonna happen is they’re gonna build a walled garden. Right now the gates are open. If few in a few years, they’re gonna close the gates. To get in, to get your information into that walled garden, to be presented to the people who are closed into that walled garden is gonna become increasingly difficult.
[00:16:19] Jason Barnard: You’re gonna be knocking at a door that doesn’t have a handle, and the only way to get in is to convince the AI to let you in. And I think that’s the key. And when we talk about agential AI, there’s another thing is what will be the industry standard for handshake? So a lot of people are saying, right, there’s gonna be a standard, I can’t remember what it’s called off the top of my head.
[00:16:43] Jason Barnard: And so you need to build that standard API interface so that the machines can exchange with your website. Yeah, that’s potentially gonna be super important, but I say potentially because we don’t yet know. Because standards like schema org, [00:17:00] for example, have been historically. Almost impossible to implement index now, which being introduced, Google refused to implement it even though it saves crawling because it’s Microsoft and they don’t like Microsoft.
[00:17:15] Jason Barnard: So you have the big tech who are gonna be saying, well, yes, it might be a good idea, but I might lose my dominant market share in the case of Google if I accept that. Which is why they didn’t take on Index now, which is a real pity because it was a great project. So there’s gonna be defensive strategies by all of them, which how you get into the world garden will depend right now on the internet and your presence on the internet and your digital footprint.
[00:17:43] Jason Barnard: What will happen in the future is you need to adapt, and it may well be back in the day. In 1998 when I started, you had to submit each page to 10 different engines manually. Yeah. Obviously it won’t be manually, but you may end up with 50. Connections and you need to [00:18:00] connect your API to 50 different platforms in order to be accepted into the walled garden.
[00:18:06] Daniel Ramsey: That API feels like the VCR Blu-ray and CD conversation back in the nineties. Yes. When, you know, you could rent any three of those and nobody really knew which one, which technology was gonna win.
[00:18:19] Jason Barnard: Yeah. And I think at that point, if you’re on your own, and this is potentially where Kalicube is an amazing.
[00:18:26] Jason Barnard: Benefit to anybody who works with us is we will be developing for all of those possibilities for all of our clients. So it will be a question of which one’s winning? We flip the switch. If you’re doing it on your own, you need to build them all on your own. So it’s we, we’ve been talking a lot about AI platforms or tools using wrappers around ChatGPT and actually not doing anything very useful who are gonna lose their business model.
[00:18:52] Jason Barnard: And I think Kalicube has the advantage, number one. We are doing it for you. Number two, we have the experience and the [00:19:00] data, but number three is we are ready for the future and we’ll prepare all of those opportunities and we’ll take the ones that are gonna be worth taking at the time. It’s worth taking.
The Five-Step Strategy for Brand Amplification
[00:19:11] Daniel Ramsey: What’s interesting I want to take us back. I think you’ve clearly articulated what Kalicube does and why this matters to a business owner, but now I, I’d love to hear strategies for winning in your mind. If you’re a business owner and you haven’t thought about this. What are the five things that you can do to kind of accelerate or really make an impact for your brand, for your Personal brand, or for your company’s brand?
[00:19:35] Daniel Ramsey: What would you do right now if you were talking to a guy in Colorado who’s a plumber with five different, you know, locations, like Yeah. What advice would you give that that particular person so that they can win in this game today, starting from zero.
[00:19:51] Jason Barnard: Okay, well, the, the plumber with five locations a great example because it, it gives us immediately the multiple factors that we need to look into.[00:20:00]
[00:20:00] Jason Barnard: Number one is you might have called your company the same thing as yourself, Jason Barnard.. Plumbing Incorporated, right? That’s potential for ambiguity. So you need to clearly distinguish in your own mind which one is you and which one is your company. Then you have five different locations and each one of them is a separate thing.
[00:20:21] Jason Barnard: With a separate, or maybe the same service, but to a separate group of people in a localization. Yeah. So you then have seven Entities that you need to deal with, five locations, one person, one company. That’s your first step is, and it’s very philosophical. Who am I? Who’s my company, and what are my different Entities, locations For Kalicube, we’ve got Jason Barnard..
[00:20:44] Jason Barnard: The CEO. We’ve got Kalicube, the company. We’ve got Kalicube Pro, the platform. We’ve got the Kalicube, Personal Brand Management service. We’ve got the ORM service. These are all Entities that we need to consider. Your [00:21:00] service, your location the people, the company. So you end up with many, many more Entities than you thought.
[00:21:06] Jason Barnard: And you need to distinguish between them all in the minds of the machine so the machine can present the right one at the right time to the right person in that funnel. So there’s a philosophical discussion that I would suggest you have with somebody who isn’t in your company because we don’t see clearly our own situation.
[00:21:25] Jason Barnard: So af one of the first things we do with a lot of clients is they come on board and we have a conversation with them is, what are we talking about? What are the Entities? And I had a conversation with oh American, huge American company who came in with basically the idea they had one Entity, Verizon.
[00:21:43] Jason Barnard: It was Verizon. Yep. And we ended up with 15. And that was just the start. And the people just went away and said, I can’t deal with this. And the end of that conversation was actually quite interesting because they ended up saying, well, we acquire and lose company or, or sell company so fast [00:22:00] that actually trying to build this ecosystem with intent is gonna be a losing battle.
[00:22:05] Jason Barnard: Mm-hmm. But back to our plumber. Step number one. Step number two is to have what we call an Entity Home, which is a webpage online that you control, where you tell your story of who you are, what you do, and who you serve, and why you’re credible to Google, ChatGPT, Microsoft,
[00:22:27] Daniel Ramsey: Bing, and so on and so forth.
[00:22:29] Daniel Ramsey: This is for the owner of the business is what we’re talking about. A website where you tell, right? Is that right? Yeah. Well, each Entity
[00:22:38] Jason Barnard: needs a page. Yep. So each location would have a page on the corporate website. Yep. The owner would also have a page on the corporate website, but as you just said, the owner is not the company and would like to, or I would suggest, differentiate themselves from the company in case they want to do other things, or they probably do [00:23:00] other things already, in which case you need a separate website.
[00:23:04] Jason Barnard: Yep. So I would always advise you have a corporate website with all your services. Each service has a specific page. That service is treated as an Entity, as a thing that needs to be understood and communicated by the machines. Each location has its own page, and you as the owner. And the CEO have a page on your website that describes your role within that company specifically, but you have your own website that describes you as a person, including your role in at the company, plus podcast appearances, articles you’ve written.
[00:23:35] Jason Barnard: And that’s an important aspect, which I’ve learned over the last few years, is super, super important. It’s much, much easier to build a Personal brand, to drive business than it is to drive build a corporate brand, to drive business. So at Kalicube we’re using the strategy, oh, sorry.
Personal Brand vs. Corporate Brand
[00:23:53] Daniel Ramsey: I think you just said something.
[00:23:54] Daniel Ramsey: I wanna unpack that because most business owners get confused in that. [00:24:00] So why is it easier to build revenue with a Personal brand than it is to build revenue with a company brand? I think it’s, this is an important distinction.
[00:24:11] Jason Barnard: If you take social media as an example, it’s much easier to build up a huge following as a person than it is to be.
[00:24:18] Jason Barnard: Build up a huge following. As a corporation, people interact with people. Interacting with Kalicube is less emotional than interacting With Jason Barnard… and that’s point number one. Point number two is people do business with people. So knowing who I am and recognizing me and seeing my expertise is going to make the business deal much easier to make.
[00:24:42] Jason Barnard: But if they come in saying, I’ve heard of Kalicube, I know Kalicube is the world expert in. Management of brands in the digital sphere, especially in search and AI, who are you? That’s a much more difficult sell. And the other really [00:25:00] important point is Google and AI pick up on people much more quickly than they pick up on corporations.
[00:25:06] Jason Barnard: That’s because, number one, they’re explicitly focusing on it for multiple reasons. They’re explicitly focusing on people. And two years ago, the number of people in Google’s machine readable encyclopedia, it’s Knowledge Graph tripled in two weeks. Yep. There is a clear tendency for them to focus on people.
[00:25:29] Jason Barnard: And the other thing is that once they’ve understood the person, understanding that person’s digital footprint is much easier because it’s smaller. Than it is to understand the corporate digital footprint, which is number one, gonna be bigger. Number two is gonna be messier because you’ve got multiple people from digital, from the marketing department who have said multiple things over the years who have lost the access to the account.
[00:25:54] Jason Barnard: They can’t go in and change it to update it so that it reflects the brand narrative today with a person. [00:26:00] It tends to be a lot closer, a lot, a lot easier to manage for the person themselves, but also easier for AI to understand. So AI and Google are gonna hook onto a person much quicker and much more effectively than they can hook onto a corporation.
[00:26:15] Daniel Ramsey: Yep. Okay. So we’ve described the Entities, we’ve created a Personal brand. And number three, what, what’s the next thing that would really. Blow up a business.
The Five-Step Strategy for Brand Amplification
[00:26:27] Jason Barnard: So for your personal brand, you want to create your Entity Home website. To become the hub of information about you. So you basically replicate your entire digital footprint on your website.
[00:26:41] Jason Barnard: Yep. That gives the AI and Google one single source where it can collect all the information about you and it knows it’s you and it’s not somebody else with the same name. And that’s a huge amount of work if you have any kind of digital footprint, and we all do. If you’ve been on podcasts, if you’ve written a book, if you’ve been guest posting, [00:27:00] you are gonna spend several months.
[00:27:02] Jason Barnard: In our experience, it generally takes about six months to retake all of that content, reproduce it on your own website, link out to the original and say, okay, this is me in a box. Yeah. Once you’ve done that, brilliant, you’ve got the foundation, the AI and Google have a single source of source of truth about you where you are saying what you want it to understand, who you are, what you do, who you serve, and why you’re credible, and you’ve linked out to the resources on other sites that say the same thing.
[00:27:37] Jason Barnard: And you then have a situation where it’s very easy for the machine to come and find new information about you. It’s very easy for the machine to understand who you are, what you do, who you serve, and why you’re credible, and to verify it because your digital footprint is consistent and you’ve linked out to the resources that corroborate everything that’s on your website.
[00:27:59] Daniel Ramsey: Hmm. [00:28:00] What do you say to the business owners like, yeah, Jason, this is awesome, but sounds really complicated. I’m just gonna make get 300,000 followers on Instagram Sure. And drive all of my Personal brand through my LinkedIn content and my Instagram and all my friends on Facebook. Like, what do you say to that person?
[00:28:20] Daniel Ramsey: Like, I’m not gonna do any of this crap.
[00:28:22] Jason Barnard: Yeah. I mean, if, if that drives your business and your business is fine with that, then. Yourself out. There are a couple of problems that I see. Number one is whether you like it or not, the AI and Google are gonna try and understand you. And if they get it wrong, that can be a disaster.
[00:28:37] Jason Barnard: For example, if they confuse you with somebody with the same name who is a criminal, somebody researches you on Google after seeing you on Instagram, you have a huge problem that you’re gonna need to sort out. That’s costly, it’s difficult, and you’re gonna have to do it anyway. Yep. And number two is 300,000.
[00:28:53] Jason Barnard: Sounds like a big number. 300,000 is peanuts. Google AI [00:29:00] ChatGPT, Google, sorry. Microsoft Co-Pilot are having trillions of niche conversations with billions of people every day. The people who are having those conversations are being brought down the funnel intentionally by the machine. That’s very smart and the.
[00:29:20] Jason Barnard: Point of why people use a specific AI assistive engine is because they trust it. Yeah. So the biggest influences in the world are the AI, ChatGPT, Google, Microsoft, okay. So we come back to the walled garden, which is, and the interesting concept is you want to be in all of the walled gardens because Instagram is walled garden of itself, but it’s very limited.
[00:29:46] Daniel Ramsey: Yep. Okay. So we’ve done all that work. How in your mind do you win this race? Like, what’s the one thing that matters after doing all these steps, like defining your Entities, you know, getting a clear website [00:30:00] that connects ’em all? Well,
[00:30:02] Jason Barnard: I mean, we’ve got up to three. Number four is claim frame proof.
[00:30:07] Daniel Ramsey: Oh, slow that down. Claim fame proof, claim frame proof. Okay. See, this is why I wanted you to slow it down. I’m like, I don’t know these words. Sorry.
[00:30:20] Jason Barnard: Go ahead. Right, so you’re making a claim. My date of birth. I’m the world expert in Online Reputation Management. I’m a world expert in Generative Engine Optimization.
[00:30:30] Jason Barnard: I’m an award-winning innovator. Yep. I take those claims and I frame them in a way. That makes sense to my business today and my Personal brand in search and AI and indeed across the internet. So for example, I’ll say, well, I’m an Online Reputation Management expert. Therefore you can come to me and trust me to help you.
[00:30:51] Jason Barnard: If you’re an entrepreneur who has an online reputation problem, be it your own or somebody else’s who shares your name, yep. Then I need to link out to the [00:31:00] third party proof that indicates and proves to the AI and indeed to the person that what I’m saying is true. Gotcha. So you’ve got all your content on the website and then you send the next six months claim frame proof because if you can prove it and it’s framed to your advantage, your claim is always gonna be very powerful.
[00:31:21] Jason Barnard: And I’ll give you a really good example is I want a Dave, you, in fact, I won two Dave Awards , in 2008, and I’d totally forgotten about them. They were sitting in my cupboard. The Davy Awards don’t keep a record of who’s won a Davy Award, but I have the cups. I won a silver one and a gold one. The silver one was for music that I wrote, and the gold one was for an edutAInment website for children.
[00:31:53] Jason Barnard: I took photos. I posted the photo on my own website and wrote a whole article saying [00:32:00] I won two Davy awards, one of which was for in, in innovative ed tech. Which is a fair comment. It was an innovative website online, multimedia. Brilliant. And, it, technically it was for the games, but we can present it slightly differently.
[00:32:16] Jason Barnard: So I reframed added it to LinkedIn. Added to a few other sources. Talked about it on podcasts. Got that put in the show notes I’ve claimed. I’ve framed. I’ve proved, yep.
[00:32:30] Daniel Ramsey: And then what, what did that do for your business so that we can clearly articulate that for people
[00:32:37] Jason Barnard: when, well, there were two ways.
[00:32:39] Jason Barnard: Number one is, if somebody’s searching my name, they see serial entrepreneur. I chose the word serial bestselling author. I was a bestseller on Amazon, like most people are because there’s an easy trick to get that to happen. Bestselling is a fairly weak word these days if you’re saying bestselling on a specific category on Amazon.
[00:32:58] Jason Barnard: Acclaimed keynote [00:33:00] speaker, I just put some reviews on my keynote speaker page from people who’ve had me as a keynote speaker, as I’m, he’s brilliant. He is wonderful. He is delightful. He’s informative, he’s educative and he’s entertAIning, and. Award-winning innovator award with the Davy Award framed in that particular way.
[00:33:17] Jason Barnard: That makes me look like a super, super interesting person to do business with. Somebody very authoritative. Somebody who really, really will easily move from, well, I’m not quite sure, to Absolutely. This guy’s a serial entrepreneur. He is an innovator. He’s won award. He’s a bestselling author and he is an acclaimed keynote speaker.
[00:33:36] Jason Barnard: And when the AI says it, it’s a third independent party. In people’s minds, and the fact that I’ve made that happen is neither here nor there. So it closes a lot of bottom of the funnel deals higher up the funnel. If somebody says who is who are the world’s experts in Generative Engine Optimization, it will say, Jason Barnard..
[00:33:59] Jason Barnard: and it will [00:34:00] say, he’s also a serial entrepreneur and in award-winning innovator. So within those consideration phases. I’m top of the list, second in the list, third in the list. If I look more impressive than the person who’s top of the list, it doesn’t matter that I’m second or third because I’ve got the award-winning innovator in there.
[00:34:16] Jason Barnard: So the words you use and you can convince the AI to use are fundamentally important. And that’s the framing. The framing is so vitally important. People skip that step. Yeah.
[00:34:30] Daniel Ramsey: How would the plumber in Colorado. What if, ’cause I get it with you and what you’re doing, but apply this to the plumber in Colorado, how would you do that process?
[00:34:43] Jason Barnard: I mean, the framing is all gonna be about how you can make or how he or she can make the, their career and their work. Appreciated. So, thousands of happy customers. You’re gonna be saying things like that. You need to find these key phrases that you turn around. We [00:35:00] call them facets. So, you know, I’m trying to think of one for a plumber, but the most respected plumber in Austin, Texas.
[00:35:07] Jason Barnard: The most reliable respect. Reliable respect. Thank you so much.
[00:35:10] Daniel Ramsey: The highest rated the best.
[00:35:13] Jason Barnard: So you’re gonna frame it the best value. And if you can get the reviews from your clients that reiterate that. Then the machines are gonna believe it. Yeah. And they’re gonna repeat it. And they repeat what you say.
[00:35:25] Daniel Ramsey: If you can back it up. Yeah. So as a plumber, I do 25 years in the industry. I’ll have a, I mean even if it’s, I dunno what it’s called in America, A BTC, it’s called in France. In plumbing, a low level qualification. It’s still a qualification. And a qualification means something from a specific school.
[00:35:46] Daniel Ramsey: If Google AI recognizes the school and it knows that it’s a school that specializes in plumbing and you have a certification from it, however lowly that certification may seem, make the most of it. Frame it. I mean, I thought [00:36:00] Davy Awards were rubbish, but they’re not. They’re brilliant and apparently they’re really valuable and I was lucky to have won one, or I was smart to have won on.
[00:36:07] Daniel Ramsey: I just didn’t realize the value, and once I framed it literally six months ago. I’ve gone from not an innovator at all to award-winning innovator in six months in every single AI engine. If you search my name, it will come up with that phrase that I’ve put in its mouth. All right, there’s one foil in your plan.
[00:36:26] Daniel Ramsey: I like foils, like I like. I like problems because it gives my brAIn something to, to solve. Old media still controls a lot of the fame piece. And I know you and I are working through some old media stuff. How does a business owner that’s a plumber get notoriety in a way that, you know, without hiring and paying a PR company $10,000 a month, you know, how, how, how does that plumber, you know, work through [00:37:00] the old media stuff?
[00:37:01] Daniel Ramsey: Because we could do all this work and then there could be another plumber who. Got featured on the news in the local newspaper. Yeah. ’cause his cousin works for this, this, the senator or whatever it is. Very frustrating. And all of a sudden we did all this work and this plumber who has none of our certifications, none of our reviews, none of the Entity things, rates above me because the local newspaper there called him the number one plumber in all of Colorado.
[00:37:31] Daniel Ramsey: So how, how do we handle. The old school media that still has a stranglehold on the AI gods and search?
[00:37:41] Jason Barnard: Well, there are actually, it’s an inter really interesting question ’cause there are several things going on. Number one is the old school media are trying to shut out the chat bots.
[00:37:48] Jason Barnard: Yeah, they’re trying to stop them stealing their content. So in fact, it’s a problem that may well go away because they’re protecting their intellectual property, the writing they’ve done, and they don’t wanna share it. So it actually doesn’t [00:38:00] get into the AI models into the search results probably, but that might not last because the distinction between the data these big tech companies use for Knowledge Graphs for LLM chatbots and for search engines is unclear.
[00:38:14] Jason Barnard: So that’s a one chunk, and I’m not saying the problem’s going away. I’m saying it’s an interesting perspective. Number two is the riches are in the niches. I was talking to somebody on my podcast yesterday, Joel, and we’re probably gonna work with him because he was saying, I am the king of debt-free real estate investment.
[00:38:41] Jason Barnard: For industrial real estate in Chicago, you’re going, okay, that’s very niche. Sure. We don’t need major press for that. Yeah. We can make you the leader in that very, very specific niche and then build out from there. [00:39:00] So in your plumber situation, I would say, what’s your niche? Find yourself a niche and identify it and work out from there.
[00:39:07] Jason Barnard: You’re gonna be beaten by the big press for the bigger terms, like plumber in Austin, Texas, but plumber, reliable plumber who fixes four, sits in two hours in Austin, Texas. Maybe there’s a lot of work in that. I don’t know. I’m making up. I’ve never been a plumber.
[00:39:22] Daniel Ramsey: Yeah. So your your, your point is go super deep on your particular niche.
[00:39:28] Daniel Ramsey: Yeah. So that you can own that. And then once you. Land your beach head there. Then expand. Well, I like that analogy. Yes, exactly. I know. ’cause you’re a Frenchy. You’re a frenchie. And, and so I thought I’d land the, the beachhead. Thank you.
[00:39:43] Jason Barnard: Yeah. Very smart. Yeah. And, and, and that niche is probably much more juicy than you think It.
[00:39:51] Jason Barnard: Because we come back to the trillions of conversations with billions of people and they’re bringing that person down the funnel, and you need to be top of algorithmic mind, I [00:40:00] call it at the critical moment when the problem is defined and the person is saying, well, when push comes to shove, who do I choose?
[00:40:06] Jason Barnard: That moment of decision. If you are the niche, if you are the person in that tiny niche, you will always get the click. If the IO understands that you are the number one credible solution within that niche.
[00:40:19] Daniel Ramsey: I guess the only caveat for our audience to understand is, if you’re a plumber and you’re like, I fix under sinks who have this thing broken and there’s only.
[00:40:31] Daniel Ramsey: A hundred of those searches that happen a month, that’s not a business to own. No. Like that’s not a niche to own. You need to make sure that there’s enough volume and the Yeah. And the dollar per ticket is high enough and you can live on that kind of revenue because you’re not gonna get a hundred percent, you’re probably not even gonna get 30%.
[00:40:51] Daniel Ramsey: Yeah. Um, so you just have to make sure. How would you make sure that.
[00:40:55] Jason Barnard: It’s a great point. I mean, number one is you need to look at your previous business and what’s been making money. What’s [00:41:00] the highest ticket margin you get? Yeah, well, the highest margin, uh, the where have you been making the majority of your money?
[00:41:08] Jason Barnard: And I think a lot of us as business owners don’t do that often enough. Look at your clients. Look at the margin. Look where the money’s coming from. From what I understand from all the business courses I’ve been doing, and the coaching I’ve been going through, is 80% of your business comes from 20% of your clients or something like that.
[00:41:26] Jason Barnard: It’s the 80 20 rule. And if you look at that and say, okay, I need to focus on that and that’s where I’m gonna make my money. So from Calico’s perspective, two years ago, we were still doing, as you said, SEL. Yep. We’ve stopped. And so we are focusing in on the people we can truly help entrepreneurs who are ambitious, who are investing in their Personal brand, who want to amplify that brand and control the narrative through search and AI.
[00:41:51] Jason Barnard: And that’s where we bring value, but also where we have the largest margin. So be niche now, but make sure that there’s the margin, and as you said, that there’s a [00:42:00] livable wage in there.
The Value of a Personal Brand in an AI-Driven World
[00:42:02] Daniel Ramsey: What’s interesting is I was at a conference and the one of the speakers there had built a Personal brand and mostly through podcasts and social media, and he had used his Personal brand to get a free condo in the place that he was living because there was a developer who couldn’t sell condos, but he had a Personal brand that could drive.
[00:42:27] Daniel Ramsey: Purchases of condos. And so he got a free $300,000 condo in this gorgeous, you know, resort location on the beach because he could drive traffic with his Personal brand for him. The exchange was very clear, but my question for you is, what is a Personal brand gonna be worth in three to five years? Assuming you know, the AI gods are trusted, they run everything.
[00:42:57] Daniel Ramsey: And our world is a lot [00:43:00] different.
[00:43:00] Jason Barnard: My bet is it will be worth significantly more than it is today because as AI takes over in the world that you’ve described in the Wally world, we talked about earlier on human contact and a real human being who actually has done something and has experienced and you can trust is going to have increasing value.
[00:43:24] Jason Barnard: Because it will be so easy to automate things, the human contact and the human element of a relationship, and my respect for this person who’s behind this particular platform, who that will do everything for me, but the person behind it is gonna become increasingly important as we move into a world where AI takes over the human element becomes more important.
[00:43:47] Jason Barnard: I’ll give you a really nice example. Is, I live in the south of France. I’m a musician as well as an entrepreneur. I play the double bass and I’m a singer. Over the last year, there have been more and more [00:44:00] concerts organized because people are tired of sitting behind their computer. They want to get out there and have a real experience with real people playing real music.
[00:44:09] Jason Barnard: That’s the kind of separate example, but it shows to what extent people need something. I hate to say the word authentic. But live music is totally different to listen to Spotify. Yeah. Live music surrounded by your friends and lots of people having a good time listening to that. Music is a million miles away from Spotify.
[00:44:30] Daniel Ramsey: There’s an energy that can’t be reproduced. There’s an, there’s a, there’s this like a something in the AIr with live music.
[00:44:37] Jason Barnard: Yep. Especially if you are Phil Collins. There’s something in the AIr. Oh yeah, that guy. And one thing is, you said five and I’ve got the fifth one. Good. Interestingly, the fifth one is often the thing that people do first.
[00:44:52] Jason Barnard: Getting out there guest post podcasting, writing articles. And you need to do that, and you need to do it [00:45:00] within your niche, and you need to make sure that you are becoming the person in your niche. But if you haven’t got a central hub. If you don’t have your digital footprint already sorted out and represented on that digital hub, if you don’t have your claim frame and prove in place, you don’t really have any, uh, as much additional value from it.
[00:45:23] Jason Barnard: So, for example, I’m on this podcast and you’ll have noticed I mentioned multiple times. I’m a world expert in Online Reputation Management. I’m a world expert in Generative Engine Optimization. I’m dropping my framing. Into this conversation, and if you know that before you do the podcast, you can make the most of the podcast by dropping the Claim Frame Prove™ system into it, but you won’t get to the claim frame prove until at least the six months of working on it.
[00:45:52] Jason Barnard: Probably more. Yeah, so the first thing people do is go on podcasts, write articles, but it’s [00:46:00] actually the last thing you should do. Sort yourself out, figure out what you’re trying to say. Then get out there because that’s where the power will come, because then you don’t have to go back and contact all the podcast hosts and ask them to change the summary.
[00:46:13] Jason Barnard: And remember, you can’t change what you say on the podcast. You can’t edit your Forbes article once you’ve written it. So make sure the claim frame prove is in place before you do that.
The Kalicube Process™ and Its Uniqueness
[00:46:25] Daniel Ramsey: That’s really interesting. Well, Jason you’d mentioned some free content and I want the audience to have the opportunity to find you and, and take advantage of either the content or, you know, becoming a customer to understand how to build this out.
[00:46:40] Daniel Ramsey: Yeah. Even though I’m a customer, I’m thinking, oh my gosh, there’s so much in this conversation that I didn’t understand two years ago when we first started working together. Sure. So where would somebody find you, and then what’s the free content that you want to give away?
[00:46:55] Jason Barnard: I’ll start with the free content because it’s here behind me.
[00:46:57] Jason Barnard: kalicube dot com slash guides. [00:47:00] We’ve got seven or eight free guides and a book, which is free. And they all explain the details of how we do things at Kalicube. So I’m giving it away because it’s a universal truth. The Kalicube Process, which is the process we implement, is a universal truth that works for all AI Assistive Engines.
[00:47:23] Jason Barnard: It’s future proof. Because it’s founded on the three technologies that all of these engines are gonna be using for the foreseeable future knowledge, PAA Knowledge Graphs, LLM, chat bots and search results. You master them all, guide to free. Knock yourselves out, do it yourself, weekends reading, and you can get started.
[00:47:42] Jason Barnard: Yeah, it’s a lot of work and it’s a lot of moving parts to hold together, as you can see from this conversation. So our services, we know all this. We have the expertise, we have the data, 3 billion data points in the Kalicube Pro platform. We have our proprietary tech layer that we’ve [00:48:00] built ourselves that optimizes and packages all of your content for the machine so that, that it’s digested incredibly quickly and incredibly reliably, and that the machines will talk about you positively with great confidence and present you to the right person at the right moment in the funnel.
[00:48:17] Jason Barnard: And the conversations they’re having. So that’s the advantage we, we offer. Sorry.
[00:48:23] Daniel Ramsey: No, I’m curious and this is an interesting conversation, an interesting way to frame the positive results. How many, we have a big team here at my Outdesk, like 2,500 people, and I’ve got, as you know, really good tech people, but I can’t tell if you’re a marketing person or a technology person.
[00:48:45] Daniel Ramsey: Or communication. So how, how many people understand this process and understand what we’re talking about? Like is there a huge pool of people? Is there a small pool of people? Like how many, [00:49:00] how many people in the world are actually doing this or thinking about this?
[00:49:07] Jason Barnard: To the extent that I do only one, and that’s me.
[00:49:11] Jason Barnard: It sounds potentially a little bit pretentious, but it’s not because I’ve mastered the Algorithmic Trinity. I had a conversation with Smarty who’s very, very famous in the marketing world who said, we all understand the Algorithmic Trinity, but I invented the term. So she’s using a term that I invented to say that everybody understands it and saying, well, you didn’t understand it until I explAIned it, which is brilliant, but do you understand how to actually master all three of them because it’s very similar.
[00:49:39] Jason Barnard: Slightly different for each one. And SEO is way behind in the past. The people who understand this are the people who understand, understood those three technologies. And you can’t have one without the other. And every other company and person I know is focusing on one, two of them, sometimes two. [00:50:00] Michael King is great example.
[00:50:02] Jason Barnard: Yeah. Michael King, great example. I pull rank. Super smart guy. He’s absolutely super amazing at SEO. He’s got the LLMs reasonably well sorted out, but he has no real understanding of how the Knowledge Graph works. So he’s missing one of the three. No offense to him. I mean it’s, it, he’s super smart.
[00:50:20] Jason Barnard: I think he’s brought a great deal to the community. But within Kalicube, I’ve got Allyssa, and you know, Allyssa, she’s the first person I’ve ever met who really understands what I’m talking about and can say I’ve got what you’ve, you what you’ve said. I’ve got the database, I’ve got the platform. And she comes back to me with stuff that I hadn’t even thought of.
[00:50:40] Jason Barnard: Right. And she’s the only person in the entire world I’ve ever met who does that. So it’s rare is what, what you saying Deannie getting good too. Who Deannie, who is Allyssa’s number two? You know, Deannie. Yeah. And she’s starting to really, really get this down. And I’m super excited about the future with Deannie and Allyssa.[00:51:00]
[00:51:00] Daniel Ramsey: There you go. All right, Jason, I really appreciate your time today. It’s been fun and conversation. I’ve learned things about being a customer in this conversation that I don’t think, I knew before, but I would just wanna thank you for your time today.
[00:51:13] Jason Barnard: Thank you for the interview. I love the questions and I love that we got five things in and it went much deeper than I thought it would, and I hope it helps people.
[00:51:22] Jason Barnard: It will.
