Overcoming The Fear of Growth and Graduating from Marketer to CEO W/ Jason Barnard | Elite Performance Podcast #58
Published by: The Elite Performance Podcast. Host: Itamar Marani Guest: Jason Barnard, Founder and CEO at Kalicube®. August 27, 2024
Listen here: Overcoming The Fear of Growth and Graduating from Marketer to CEO W/ Jason Barnard | Elite Performance Podcast #58
“It doesn’t matter if you feel uncomfortable as long as you know you’ve made the right choice.”
In this episode of the Elite Performance Podcast, I interview a 1 on 1 client, Jason Barnard on how he overcame a fear of growth, starting closing 6-figure deals and graduated from being a savvy marketer to a powerful CEO.
We covered how to identify when emotions negatively impact decision making, how to overcome that… but more importantly when it’s helpful vs unhelpful to put emotions aside.
Topics covered:
- Viewing Your Brand as an Investment Changes Everything: Jason’s most significant shift came when he started presenting his services as an investment, not a cost. He gained this conviction only after making a significant investment in his own coaching and seeing it deliver a multifold return. This genuine belief now makes his sales conversations more powerful and authentic.
- A Calm Demeanor Closes Deals: Jason directly attributes over $150,000 in new deals signed over the previous weeks to his ability to remain calm and separate emotion from pragmatic decision-making. By not getting over-excited, he projects a calm confidence that builds trust with potential clients and has dramatically improved his sales effectiveness and he expects that to bring in $400,000 additional revenue in the last quarter of 2024.
- Structured Communication Normalizes Difficult Conversations: Implementing structured, weekly meetings with a dedicated format for feedback transformed the company’s dynamics. It created a safe, normalized environment for having difficult conversations, which broke down fear barriers between Jason and his team, leading to greater honesty and employee autonomy.
- Don’t Expect Your Team to Work Like You: Jason shares a key leadership lesson: it was a “huge mistake” to expect his team members to operate with his same work style and motivations. He learned that everyone works their own way and that effective management requires adapting to their styles rather than imposing his own
- You Must Confront the Fear of Scaling: Many entrepreneurs are subconsciously held back by a fear of growth, often due to a past negative business experience. Jason confronted this fear directly, and by building a reliable team and systems, he gained the confidence that his company could get bigger without failing.
- Consistency from Leadership is Non-Negotiable: For new systems to work, the leader must demonstrate unwavering commitment. Jason emphasizes that he never misses his weekly team meetings, even if it means rearranging his entire day. This consistency signals the importance of the process to the team and ensures they take it seriously.
- Use Physical Tokens to Manage Personas: To effectively manage his different roles, Jason uses a system of colored shirts. The red shirt is for his public-facing “The Brand SERP Guy®” persona during public performances and client meetings. A green shirt is for internal team management, and other colors are for his personal life. This tangible practice helps him consciously shift his mindset to be most effective in any given context.
- The “SEO to CEO” Transition Requires Trust: A significant part of Jason’s growth involved graduating from a hands-on marketer to a true CEO. This required learning to trust his team, delegating daily responsibilities, and letting go of the need to be involved in every detail, which freed up his mental space to focus on high-level strategy.
Overcoming The Fear of Growth and Graduating from Marketer to CEO W/ Jason Barnard | Elite Performance Podcast #58
Introduction and Jason’s Breakthrough
Jason Barnard [00:00:00]:
I’ve signed at least $150,000 in deals that I wouldn’t have signed without the training. And by the end of the year, I would expect to be at something like $300,000 or $400,000.
Itamar Marani [00:00:10]:
What would have happened before? What can you do differently now? Today, I am joined by Jason. Jason is the founder and CEO of Kalicube®, which has solved Digital Marketing, more specifically on how to manage and control your personal brand online. To become the reference thought leader in your industry, and to be present everywhere your audience looks when they’re online.
Jason Barnard [00:00:28]:
Putting the emotion to one side has created the calm, because it’s the emotion that creates the over excitement, the worry. And as soon as I’ve taken the emotion, put it to one side, just the calm is projected, people can feel it. And it changes how I manage people, how I manage myself, how I relate to people and how I’m selling.
Itamar Marani [00:00:52]:
Could somebody else with your exact skillset be achieving more than you currently are? If so, you’re in the right place. I’m your host, Itamar Marani, ex-Israeli Special Forces, former undercover agent, Brazilian jiu jitsu black belt and mindset and performance coach to over a hundred 6 to 9-figure entrepreneurs. Welcome to the Elite Performance Podcast where we arm ambitious entrepreneurs with actionable mindset tactics. They can stop playing small and win big.
The Journey From Marketer to CEO
Itamar Marani [00:01:21]:
Welcome, Jason. Thanks for coming on.
Jason Barnard [00:01:23]:
It’s a pleasure, Itamar, thank you so much for having me. I can share my story.
Itamar Marani [00:01:29]:
So with that said, can you start us off by that? Like, basically, what’s the before? What’s the after since we’ve been doing the coaching?
Jason Barnard [00:01:37]:
Well, I started to transition to being a real CEO less than a year ago, in fact, because I had to go to hospital and I had to lead my team to manage the shop, as it were. And that was a scary experience and made me realize to what extent, a, my team are brilliant and b, how uncomfortable it was for me. So I went through multiple iterations of training and started with you after seven or eight months, and now we’re what, eleven weeks later, almost three months later, three months later. Huge transformation in terms of my mindset and how I approached everything to do with my company.
Itamar Marani [00:02:19]:
That’s great. Any tangible results that this wouldn’t have happened before I had done this work?
Jason Barnard [00:02:24]:
Well, specific monetary results is I’ve signed at least $150,000 in deals that I wouldn’t have signed without the training. Potentially, now, I hope we’re going to sign another 50,000 in the next few weeks. And by the end of the year, I would expect to be at something like 300,000 or 400,000.
Itamar Marani [00:02:46]:
That’s great. All right, so first off, congrats on that. That’s great. So what do you, when you say I wouldn’t have been able to do this after coaching, what specifically is that? What, what’s the difference there? What would have happened before? What can you do differently now?
Jason Barnard [00:03:02]:
Well, I think one of the things is not getting over excited about everything. That’s always been my tendency, a bit childish, to get over excited, get over enthusiastic, I think the word is. And learning to stay calm has changed both my way of presenting our services to people and the way I manage my team and the way my team actually move forwards, much more confidence. So from a sales perspective, it’s all to do with my attitude to the prospects that we’re talking to. From a team perspective, the company is moving forwards without me having to get involved in the day to day, which means I’ve got a lot more time to think about the company and also think about how I’m selling and how I’m presenting everything.
The Power of Calmness and Investment Mindset
Itamar Marani [00:03:46]:
Okay, great. So let’s get into kind of the nitty gritty of it. What do you think has, is there, was there anything specific? Like, I have my perspective from the coaching, but from your angle, that allow you to have more of this calm? So that basically if someone else is listening to this, they’re like, oh, that’s something that I sometimes get overexcited about. I don’t deliver well, whatever it may be. I don’t manage well. Actually, when we did this, it allowed me to be more calm and gave me that.
Jason Barnard [00:04:12]:
Number one is I’ve remained calm and clear when I’m explaining things to potential clients and that makes all the difference in the world. I don’t get overexcited like I used to. I don’t explain the details, I don’t explain the how to, I explain what they’re going to get out of it. And the other big difference is, in fact, it’s not the coaching that did it, it’s the fact that I paid for your coaching that did it, is that you said to me, when I said, I feel uncomfortable paying this money. You said, but do you think it’s the right decision? And I said, yes, I think it’s the right decision. And you said, that’s all that matters. If you think it’s the right decision, even if you’re uncomfortable, you’re on the right track. And then I immediately saw once I had started signing a deal within four weeks that I don’t think I would have signed otherwise made me see it as an investment. So now I present our services, the Kalicube services, as an investment, and that makes all the difference in the world.
Itamar Marani [00:05:10]:
Okay, so there’s two components here. One, you were more calm, which obviously radiates during the sales call. This is a calm, confident individual. And two, basically seeing the example that, okay, you were in the driver’s seat, so to speak, you bought something, you felt uncomfortable, but you knew it was the right thing to do. You’re like, okay, if I’m doing this, other people probably do this as well. Is that accurate?
Jason Barnard [00:05:34]:
Yeah. And it made me truly believe when I say to people, working with Kalicube is an investment that will bring back multifold what you invest. I didn’t really believe that before. Now I truly believe it. I know it to be true. And I can see it for our clients that it’s bringing back multifold rewards, much in the way that the training with you, the payment I made to you, the investment I made in Itamar, has brought back multifold rewards for me.
Itamar Marani [00:06:03]:
So I want to ask about that. What made that shift in you having that confidence that it is worth it, so to speak, it’s going to give them that return?
Jason Barnard [00:06:12]:
It was as simple as paying money that I felt uncomfortable with. It turned out to be very quickly, simply an investment that returned its value multifold. It really is that simple.
Delegating and Structured Communication
Itamar Marani [00:06:24]:
Okay, so first thought. That’s very interesting. It’s the first time I’ve heard that. That’s big. So that’s part one, part two, so to speak. Part one, you said also that you were a lot more calm. So what do you think was causing you previously to not have that sense of calm?
Jason Barnard [00:06:42]:
I think a lot of internal struggles, a lot of overwork, a lot of excessive responsibility. I think part of the calmness is being told that I need to be calmer and that if I’m calm, everyone around me will be calm, which works, it’s true. And the other is I can be more calm because I’ve got less daily responsibilities. And I think that’s the key as well. I’ve delegated much better, which means that other people are looking after the day to day stuff, and it frees up my mind to think and not worry.
Itamar Marani [00:07:15]:
Great. So let’s dive into that because when we started working together, the big kind of rolling cry, the big project was graduating from marketer to CEO.
Jason Barnard [00:07:23]:
Yep.
Itamar Marani [00:07:24]:
And you’re saying that was the big thing. When you made that kind of jump from just being a marketer who was like an SEO pro into a CEO, then you also let go of a lot of things. But I remember that was the big thing about I’m not allowed to jump in and do certain things. You got all these rules. Is that what you’re referring to?
Jason Barnard [00:07:40]:
Yeah. From SEO to CEO is what I’ve been through, and it’s been delightful. I think it comes down to truly trusting the people who work for me and not systematically thinking that I’ve got a better idea or that I can do it better or that I need to get involved. And one of the things is the weekly meetings and the structure of the weekly meetings, I get feedback from them every week about what they did well, what they didn’t do so well, what the company has achieved, what the company didn’t get great value out of. And I found that that helps the people on the team feel more positive about themselves whilst remaining self critical. And the people who don’t fill in that form before the meeting are the ones who come into the meeting generally feeling pretty low and unmotivated. So, surprisingly, saying, I didn’t do this very well this week, but I did this very well this week, helps to motivate people and give people a clarity and a positive take on what’s going on in the company.
Itamar Marani [00:08:47]:
Okay, so to clarify for the audience. In the past, you didn’t have this very structured one on one format, is that correct?
Jason Barnard [00:08:55]:
Yeah, I didn’t. I’d only just started doing it.
Itamar Marani [00:08:59]:
Okay. And that was what you think gave it both empowered the staff, so to speak, because they understood the role, but also it gave you peace of mind because you always knew what was going on, but in a very organized way, wasn’t it? Like, I always have to think about this, I always have to hold this ball up and so on. Is that accurate?
Jason Barnard [00:09:15]:
Yeah, that’s accurate. Mads Singers suggested that I have weekly meetings with my leadership team. I then started working with you, and you confirmed it. You both gave me slightly different structures. I’ve mixed them together and come up with something that works for me, my team, and the idea as well, of saying to people, here’s a problem, what’s your solution going to be? Come back to me next week has been very powerful. Another very powerful thing is timelines, is that I never asked anybody for a timeline. I thought, it’ll happen when it happens. And it’s all wonderful and delightful, which was very hands off to the point at which I think I was scared to ask for timelines.
Jason Barnard [00:09:55]:
And now I systematically ask for timelines, and we don’t always hit them, but at least we know where we’re going and how long it’s likely to take. The other thing you suggested, which was really helpful, was ending a meeting with something good and something bad about working with the other person. And that went on for the first four weeks. And after four weeks, generally speaking, we’d run out of things to say, either positive or negative. We’d gone through the negative stuff. We got that out on the table. Nobody was offended, nobody took it badly. The good stuff came out, same kind of thing.
Jason Barnard [00:10:29]:
And what was interesting is everybody on the team pointed out exactly the same thing to me about what’s difficult working with me. They all agreed. And there’s one bad thing about me, and it’s sending emails with new instructions, new ideas on a daily basis that interrupts the timeline we’ve agreed or makes them freak out or makes them switch course or gives them work over the weekend. And if I stop doing that, everybody’s happy.
Overcoming the Fear of Growth
Itamar Marani [00:10:58]:
Yeah. So there’s a couple of things I want to dive into because this is big stuff. First off, why do you think in the past you were afraid to give timelines?
Jason Barnard [00:11:10]:
I was. I didn’t want to put pressure on people. And generally speaking, I work on a it’ll happen when it happens basis. So if I happen to be enthusiastic about something today, it will happen today. If I’m not enthusiastic, it’ll happen tomorrow or the day after or next week or never. So I kind of have run the company that way, expecting people to work the way I work. And that’s a huge mistake. Nobody works the way I work.
Jason Barnard [00:11:35]:
They all work their own way.
Itamar Marani [00:11:37]:
Yeah. Okay. So that’s one. Two, I want to ask, what would you say basically to somebody? What would you have said to your younger self, you say, like nine months ago, who was kind of like, no, I should probably be doing these meetings. This is how everybody says you’re supposed to do it. But they felt some resistance, whether it’s to hold people accountable to a certain level, because people don’t like them, if they hold them accountable, they’re more like, let’s call, like a tough boss or whatever it may be like from being on the other side of that challenge. Then what would you say to them, so to speak?
Jason Barnard [00:12:11]:
Well, there are hundreds of things going on in most people’s minds about why you don’t do a meeting with people, set timelines, have the difficult conversations. For me, it was they’re going to not like me or they’re going to walk away. And fact is, if they do walk away, then we shouldn’t be working together anyway. If they don’t like me a little bit or if they like me a little bit less, does it matter? No, it doesn’t matter. We’re in a professional environment. People liking each other is obviously helpful and lovely, but it isn’t necessary. Disliking people is obviously not going to be great for team morale. But that’s a different question.
Jason Barnard [00:12:50]:
The other thing is, I expected them to take responsibility for booking the meetings. And I had already told everybody, all the leadership team, there were seven people. Book a meeting with me every week, and they did it once, they did it twice, then they stopped. And a lot of that I learned afterwards was because they were worried and scared about coming and talking to me. And now that I’ve imposed it and said, every week we’re having this half an hour meeting, we’re going to go through the good, the bad, the goals that we’ve got and the tasks that we need or the responsibilities that you’re working on. We don’t get overwhelmed each week it’s a shortish meeting. We move forward step by step. Everybody’s comforted by the fact that everybody else is aware of what’s going on.
Jason Barnard [00:13:39]:
And the last thing is, Mads Singers actually told me, these meetings are not something you can ever not do without an incredibly good reason. So if I’m in America with the time zone completely different to the Philippines, I still have to do these meetings, even if it’s 07:00 in the morning. 06:00 in the morning for me. And I think that’s really, really important because I actually rearranged a whole day last week to keep the meetings. And if I hadn’t done that, it sends out the wrong signal to everybody. If I’m not taking the meeting seriously, nobody will take the meeting seriously. And if I don’t take the meeting seriously, then I would assume people will get the feeling that I don’t take the leadership team as seriously as I say I do.
Itamar Marani [00:14:22]:
Yeah, there’s something I want to speak to. What you said about when it was kind of more sporadic, people didn’t end up booking because they were afraid of it. It was this big thing. It was like, oh, I have to have a meeting. But once we create this kind of weekly cadence, where just another thing you have every single week that, you know, the fear lessens. It’s just that you get exposed to it so many times. Okay, this is just another part of the week. And also just, it’s not me having to give my boss this feedback and him having to give me.
Itamar Marani [00:14:51]:
And whatever they do it, it’s awkward. Oh, this is just something that we do at the end of every single meeting. It doesn’t feel like a big deal anymore because it’s just normalized. It’s just part of the behavior. It’s like something that we just do on a weekly basis. And I think that’s one of the big tricks about it. A lot of these tough conversations that we want to have with employees or these structures, whatever it may be, if we can just normalize it, all of a sudden, it’s not a big deal. Because in the head, like, okay, I’m expecting it.
Itamar Marani [00:15:18]:
Like, I’m expecting that he’s going to give me feedback. I’m going to give him feedback. It’s not like, oh, wow, how is that going to feel? Are we going to do this? Are we not going to do this? Should I walk on edge? It’s like, okay, this is just a normal part of the day to day. Is that what it felt like in the company, that everyone’s like, okay, this is not a big deal?
Jason Barnard [00:15:34]:
Yeah, the meeting isn’t a big deal. It’s keeping up with each other. The feedback that we’re giving each other has become, as you said, normalized. And in fact, a couple of the team members said to me, I’m so glad we’ve had this conversation because I was scared of you and I’m not anymore.
Itamar Marani [00:15:52]:
That’s great. Okay, first off, that’s a really big thing.
Jason Barnard [00:15:57]:
Yeah, it’s huge.
Itamar Marani [00:15:58]:
It’s huge. Yeah. It’s hard to manage a company when. Okay, so actually, one of the things.
Jason Barnard [00:16:03]:
So just to finish that, it also means that I’m thinking of specifically the two people who said that to me, is that they now come in with decisions pretty much made and just ask me to confirm that their decision is correct. Whereas before, they wouldn’t even start to make a decision without me. And that they’re not scared that I might say that’s not actually what we need to do, or I might disagree. That doesn’t worry them anymore. So having the difficult conversation about the way people work and how I’m more or less uncomfortable with it is hugely helpful for removing the barrier of boss to employee.
Itamar Marani [00:16:47]:
And to kind of repeat what I’m hearing to you, that a big part of where we started, like, you were a lot more calm. And that calm enabled you to also close more sales, bigger sales, and also lead a team better. Now, with that, the structure of just always knowing that every week you’re going to talk to your leadership team, you’re going to understand what’s important, where they’re at. And there’s going to be this very open line of communication. A, created this very, let’s call it like a short term calm, an immediate calm, but on top of them, on top of that, because it created this environment where it’s easier for them to succeed, it also gave you even more calm because, you know, okay, they’re actually going to take care of their stuff. You’re going to make things happen.
Jason Barnard [00:17:27]:
Yeah.
Itamar Marani [00:17:28]:
Is that accurate?
Jason Barnard [00:17:29]:
Yeah.
Itamar Marani [00:17:29]:
This virtuous, like, snowball effect?
Jason Barnard [00:17:32]:
It is. And that leads me to another thing, is that I’ve always had a fear that if it becomes too big, it will fail. And the calm attitude I’ve developed and the leadership team I now have who trust me and I trust them. And the open communication has got me to a point where I no longer fear that Kalicube is going to get big, it’s going to expand, it’s going to grow, because I don’t think it will fail. In fact, I know it won’t fail because I’m better at my job and everybody else is better at their job, so we can scale, and I have no fear.
Itamar Marani [00:18:13]:
That’s great. So this is actually something I wanted to jump on. It’s in my notes, but I want to talk about this a little bit more. Is that all right?
Jason Barnard [00:18:20]:
Yep.
Itamar Marani [00:18:21]:
Okay. So now you’re in a better place. Like, you already, you look more confident, like everything’s flowing really well. And it’s very doable to say that now. However, there was an initial step where you had to say, okay, like, we’re really gonna go big. And it feels scary when that the first time you kind of brushed up against that fear of, if I grow this too big, it’ll fail or I’ll go bankrupt or whatever it may be. What was that initial? How did you get over that initial feeling? Like, now, again, you’re kind of past it. You’re confident, you’re good.
Itamar Marani [00:18:57]:
But how was your interaction with it at first.
Recognizing and Managing Emotions
Jason Barnard [00:19:05]:
Partly it was luck, is that I agreed to pay Itamar to coach me without checking the bank balance. I paid you and realized the bank balance was pretty much empty, and we were going to struggle, and I was very scared that the whole thing was going to collapse. And then I sat down, had a conversation with Jean Marie, who’s the Head of Admin and Finance and had a very frank discussion with her about the finances, and she stepped up to the plate and basically said, I’m looking after this now. And seeing somebody that confident that they can handle the finances of the company, and they feel so sure that they can do it, and they feel that they can talk to me frankly and I can talk to them frankly about the money. Made a huge difference. So the luck is I put myself or put my company in danger by working with you. And that actually kicked me into a position where I had to then trust Jean Marie, which has made a huge difference.
Itamar Marani [00:20:11]:
Can I add something on top of that, from my perspective? So, usually when there’s success, there’s a couple different components that get thrown into it. For me, I think there was. You had a previous, let’s call it a bit of a failure in business that scarred you a bit. And a lot of times we struggle to recognize that what was in the past isn’t always going to repeat itself. There’s different context. It’s like the situation is different, and also we are different, kind of that saying that a man never crosses the same river twice because the man has changed and so is the river. And from my angle, from our coaching, I saw that that was a big thing that when we were able to recognize. I have this fear because the last time that I had something successful and went really big, there were issues.
Itamar Marani [00:21:00]:
But contextually, this is a different situation that I saw relieve a lot of pressure. Was that something that you noticed as well, or was it more so on your end? You just felt like it was having that clarity with Jean Marie?
Jason Barnard [00:21:13]:
No, that is an additional aspect. The failure of the last company, it didn’t actually fail. It was just very bad for me, and I think that affected me very deeply. To be the company was doing incredibly well, was making a lot of money. We were making huge profits. It was all easy, easy, easy. And my business partner turned out to be a very difficult human being. And that’s just made me nervous about a company.
Jason Barnard [00:21:42]:
When the team gets big and the money starts rolling in, and I’ve seen or I experienced something negative, a really bad experience. And although I’m alone at Kalicube, so that wouldn’t happen again, the general idea that when it gets big, things go wrong was really ingrained in my brain.
Itamar Marani [00:22:03]:
And that’s what you’re saying. That’s the big context. You don’t have that person there anymore, a partner that can be deceitful or whatever. It may be, and I think. So I’ll put it this way. What I see, and the reason I wanted to share this, because I see so many guys keeping their business small because, and they say they want to grow. You know, they all say they want to grow, but in reality, there’s something they’re getting out of keeping their business small. And it’s usually some kind of subconscious sense of safety or certainty.
Itamar Marani [00:22:32]:
And either like, oh, I know how to manage it like this, or like, oh, this feels safe right now. I’m afraid that if we go there, it’s all going to come under. And a lot of times, it’s not something they’re aware is going on. And for you, I felt like it was. You obviously had this drive when you were doing all the right things. You know, you’re going to the conferences, you were speaking, you were putting yourself out there, you’re doing things that are, let’s call it uncomfortable. And there was one little thing there that was kind of like keeping saying to yourself, like a voice in your head that was like, Jason, we shouldn’t do this. It was bad last time.
Itamar Marani [00:23:06]:
But being able to have that kind of external experience where you can recognize and talk to that voice in your head and say, this is not like last time because of XYZ. For people who are more rational, more logic driven, let’s say that can a lot of times use the trick.
Jason Barnard [00:23:21]:
Yeah.
Itamar Marani [00:23:22]:
And for you, that’s why it was so enjoyable and easy to work with you, honestly, because once you cognitively recognize that, oh, this is a different situation we got from a subconscious level to a conscious level, you were like, you know what? Like how you said at the beginning, this still feels uncomfortable, but no, it’s the right thing. And I know there’s not a valid reason to not do it. So let’s go.
Jason Barnard [00:23:42]:
Yeah. So, in fact, maybe one of the biggest lessons you gave me was before we even started working together, it feels uncomfortable, but is it the right decision? Yes, do it. But for me, one of the huge things is identifying emotion, where emotion’s coming in. And what I’ve now learned to do is identify the emotion, put it to one side of it’s still there, it still exists, but I recognize it as emotion, which makes the pragmatic, logical decisions much, much easier to make.
Itamar Marani [00:24:14]:
So what is your process of that? How do you actually do that?
Jason Barnard [00:24:18]:
Well, I literally have in my mind a situation, and I say this part’s emotion, this part is pragmatic, and the emotion part, for some reason, is now in my right hand, and I literally just put it next to me.
Itamar Marani [00:24:32]:
So I want to, like, share this at home for the people who are listening and are not watching this on YouTube. What Jason did is like, physically he shook his right hand and he physically put it aside. And a big thing we worked on is just basically understanding. There’s different components to you. There is a more rational, strategic one, and then there’s a more emotional one. A lot of times most people, they’re not even aware that that’s a thing. They just think I am one entity. But if I can think of myself, okay, there’s that emotional part of me, and then there’s the more rational, calm part of me, I can ask myself, who do I want to listen to? And when facing a certain situation where I can feel certain emotions arising and I can decide, okay, wait, who am I going to listen to and who’s saying what? And then being able to put that aside, it’s a very powerful tool.
Itamar Marani [00:25:18]:
Like you keep bringing up. I had a list in the points I wanted to bring up in the podcast. This was another one that you brought up as well. But that was, for me, seeing like, I think that’s what created the calm. And that’s really where I wanted to come, like, full circle with this. Because when people are emotional, it’s very challenging to be calm. But when you have that ability, say, I don’t have to be controlled by my emotions, it gives room for that calm, rational, logical side of you to just come out there. What are your thoughts on that?
Jason Barnard [00:25:46]:
No, no. As you were saying it, I was thinking exactly the same thing, and I was going to say, oh, we can put this back in at the beginning, because by putting the emotion to one side has created the calm, because it’s the emotion that creates the over excitement, the worry, and people can feel it. And as soon as I’ve taken the emotion, put it to one side, just the calm is projected, people can feel it, and it changes how I manage people, how I manage myself, how I relate to people, and how I’m selling, and how I relate also to our clients. So it’s a huge, huge thing, simply putting the emotion to one side. And one thing about the emotion is, you suggested putting the emotion in the backseat. I prefer putting it next to me because I want to be able to see it. So in my mind’s eye, I can actually see it on my right hand side. I want to know it’s there.
Jason Barnard [00:26:36]:
I think that’s important, because if I forget it’s there, it will sneak back in.
Itamar Marani [00:26:41]:
Interesting. So is this something I need to be vigilant of this thing? It’s going to try to creep back in all the time. It can’t blindside me from behind.
Jason Barnard [00:26:48]:
Yeah, exactly.
Itamar Marani [00:26:49]:
Interesting. That’s a really good point.
Jason Barnard [00:26:53]:
I’ve taught Itamar something.
Itamar Marani [00:26:55]:
I’m always trying to learn, man, I think, to be truthful. So, especially with the one on one clients, I view it a lot of times as the lab. It’s where I get to learn, just trying out these new things and trying out what works, what doesn’t, and being able to put in the new features of, like, our system, so to speak. So I am always trying to learn. I appreciate that. There was one thing I wanted to get here with that was for you, that we work to remember the ABC triangle and basically ways to identify when you’re being emotional. Was that also a big thing for you, or for you? You’re just trying to notice and ask yourself, when am I being emotional?
Jason Barnard [00:27:33]:
I don’t even remember what the ABC triangle is. I don’t think we ever discussed it. Or if we did, I forgot about it completely. I just identify emotion, package it up, and put it to one side.
Itamar Marani [00:27:43]:
Interesting.
Jason Barnard [00:27:44]:
Okay, so you can explain it to me now, if you want. What is the ABC triangle?
Itamar Marani [00:27:49]:
It’s what we worked on to basically understand. I can tell that the part of me that I don’t want to take over is starting to arise when a, I feel a certain way, affect comes up, or b, I send something in my body, I behave a certain way, or c, there’s the cognitive, I tell myself a certain thing, I repeat a phrase in my head, like, God, what are people thinking? Thinking this will never work, whatever it may be. But for you, it sounds like it’s more the affect aspect.
Jason Barnard [00:28:16]:
Yeah, I completely forgot about that.
Itamar Marani [00:28:18]:
Interesting.
Jason Barnard [00:28:20]:
But what I’ve been doing is simply saying, oh, here’s an emotion. And I don’t analyze where it comes from or why it’s there. I just say it’s an emotion. I’ve got to put it to one side, make the decision, get on with things. So it’s been very. I don’t know, cerebral is just waiting for the emotions to appear and putting them to one side, and it’s worked very well, but I think I might now start thinking about the ABC.
Itamar Marani [00:28:44]:
Yeah, it’s. So I’ll put it this way. The affect sometimes is the last thing we recognize from what I’ve noticed, noticing that for me to actually be inside something in the moment and recognize, oh, wait, I’m getting overexcited, or I’m getting a bit scared. It’s sometimes hard to notice, you know what I mean? But if I can say whenever I get overexcited, I notice that my foot jitters a bit, or that I crack my knuckles, or that all of a sudden I go to the fridge because. Or if I have four cups of coffee with some of the guys, like, that’s their thing. Or the cognitive, if I suddenly hear in my head, like, oh, let’s get to it. Let’s go, oh, this will never work, or what will people think? Those are things that are often, because they’re more tangible, they’re more clear, they’re easier to catch. And because they’re easier to catch, I can stop the emotion while it’s a smaller thing instead of, like, it’s so big and overwhelming that now I notice it.
Itamar Marani [00:29:41]:
Does that make sense?
Jason Barnard [00:29:43]:
It does make sense. I mean, I haven’t been using it because I think I don’t need it.
Itamar Marani [00:29:49]:
It’s great. Again, it’s where everybody has different things.
Jason Barnard [00:29:51]:
Yeah. I mean, for me, it’s really clear. I don’t think I get it right every time, but I don’t think anybody ever does. But for me, the emotion rises or emotion starts taking over the decision making process, and I don’t know if I can see it in my brain, which is why I can grab it with my right hand and put it to one side, and then I can still see it, because for me, it’s a thing.
Itamar Marani [00:30:16]:
Yeah, I agree. So I do want to circle back to one thing you said earlier, which I think is really, really big. So a lot of people have this notion of only my negative emotions are the things I need to put away, so to speak. And you said something that’s very true, which most people don’t recognize. Also, you say, when I get overexcited. Now, people can say excited is a positive, quote unquote, emotion. But the reality is, like, whether you’re overexcited or excited, it’s not you being calm and logical and strategic. And I think that’s a big thing people out there don’t recognize. They think, oh, I’m excited.
Itamar Marani [00:30:51]:
It’s a positive thing. But it’s not if it’s effective. It’s actually getting you to do the things that you know you should be doing in a calm and logical and strategic manner. And I want to hear your thoughts on that.
Jason Barnard [00:31:01]:
Yeah, I mean, I agree. I like getting overexcited. It’s my nature. But we’ve also discussed it’s not my nature, it’s the way I’ve learned to exist and be. And I’ve got so used to it. I feel that it’s such an integral part of me. I can’t remove it, but I can actually can. I can move it to one side while I have to, or where it’s helpful or where it’s necessary.
Jason Barnard [00:31:21]:
Sometimes I do need it in work because it helps me to move forward to what I’m trying to do. Sometimes I don’t need it and it’s actually damaging. So I need to move it to one side and the other. Interesting thing is, for my personal life, being over enthusiastic is really good for day to day life because it makes it fun and it makes it fun for me, and it makes it fun for the people around me, the people I love. And what I’ve noticed is that there are very now, for me, a distinction between the two. When I’m in the professional mode, there’s a lot less fun going on now than there used to be. And the trick has been, and I hope I will continue to maintain it, is retain the fun and the overenthusiasm when I move into the personal life. Because that’s what makes my personal life fun.
Jason Barnard [00:32:04]:
And that distinction is something I never made before. There wasn’t a difference between professional me and day to day me with my family. And now there is.
Final Thoughts and Conclusion
Itamar Marani [00:32:13]:
Question, when you’re day to day, you do you take off the red shirt?
Jason Barnard [00:32:17]:
I definitely take off the red shirt.
Itamar Marani [00:32:20]:
I think it’s a big thing. People don’t recognize that these tokens help us. So just for context, Jason has a red shirt that’s part of his branding. And somewhere, you see, when I research him online, you see that everywhere. And also, people notice I always wear the exact same polo. Like, if you’ve been listening to the pod since episode one a couple years ago, it’s the exact same one. Not that have different shirts with the exact same brand, it’s called. And having these tokens to remind us, oh, in this context, this is.
Itamar Marani [00:32:49]:
And using your words is what helpful. This behavior is helpful. But when I change context and I have a physical reminder, for example, I wear something different, or whatever it may be, I recognize different behaviors are helpful. And it’s all about what you said. It’s the context of what’s helpful in this situation, for this environment, how I’m trying to operate. That’s one and two what I think, and again, I’m repeating in a bit of a different way for the audience, I think is really important. You can’t just tell yourself, I’m going to be a robot. Like, I don’t want to get overexcited.
Itamar Marani [00:33:20]:
I don’t. It’s not realistic. However, if you can say, you know what I recognize this is not a helpful behavior in the workspace, but it’s still something I enjoy in life, or just, it’s a need of mine. Like, I like to get amped up. It’s going to go somewhere. So if you can preemptively decide, this is where I want to channel that in my personal life and my hobbies, whatever it may be, then you can, so to speak, like, get it out of your system so that when you show up to work, it’s not there to take over because you’ve already kind of vented it. And I think there’s a big trend of, you know, deep work. Do the first thing 4 hours in the morning, deep work block and all that.
Itamar Marani [00:33:58]:
And it is very effective for a lot of people. However, some people have a little bit of crazy in them, and if they don’t get that crazy at the beginning of the day, it goes somewhere. This happens with me as well, and a lot of other clients that I know that they have to do something a bit exciting, the beginning of the day, a hard workout, whatever it may be, because only afterwards they’re able to become a strategic. Otherwise, they’ll take it out of business during their quote unquote deep work time.
Jason Barnard [00:34:22]:
Okay, well, that’s new for me, but delightful to know. And I’ll tell you something as well about the shirt. I’ve taken it a step further, is I love everything in threes. A friend of mine told me he was a teacher, a high school teacher, and he said he had the best success rates in the region with one of the worst schools in one of those deprived areas. And people were asking me how he did it, and he said, everything in threes. If I’ve only got two points to make, I’ll invent a third, even if it’s not important. If I’ve got four points, I’ll integrate the fourth into the third. Kids will always remember in threes, they won’t remember four and two doesn’t seem important.
Jason Barnard [00:35:03]:
And I’ve stuck to that for the last six, seven years obsessively. And it works every time. It’s astonishing. So everything in threes. I only had the red shirt and then not red shirt, that’s only two. And then somebody on the door, the people on the team pointed out to me or said to me, actually, when you wear the red shirt, you’re intimidating.
Itamar Marani [00:35:25]:
Interesting.
Jason Barnard [00:35:26]:
So now I have the red shirt for public appearances, explaining things, being on shows, meeting with clients. It’s the Persona, The Brand SERP Guy, and I act like The Brand SERP Guy when I’m wearing the red shirt. Then I have green shirts for team and blue or any other colour for my private life. And it seems a bit weird and I’m not completely obsessive about the green and the blue, but it has really helped because not wearing the red shirt in front of the team has helped for them to get closer to me or to not be as intimidated by me. And the green allows me to separate my work with the team, my work as The Brand SERP Guy, promoting Kalicube with the red shirt and my private life. And I’m sure it’s not 100% like that, but I put a blue shirt on and I get fun. I put the red shirt on, I explain things, I put the green shirt on and I start to organize everything.
Itamar Marani [00:36:25]:
I think it’s great and there’s absolute truth to it. There’s nowhere around it. For anyone who’s listening and that struggles to kind of differentiate between life and work and they feel like they’re the same personality. It’s not effective. The way you want to show up, how you set it for your clients, versus how you want to show up for your team, versus how you want to show up for your misses or for your kids or whatever it may be. They’re completely different. One kind of attitude, to use your words, is not helpful when you’re talking to your clients, but it’s very helpful when you’re talking to your team. It’s very helpful for me to be, let’s call it a little bit silly or goofy when I’m with my three year old, not so much when I’m with my clients. And being able to have something help you remind you to switch onto this and switch off from that is, again, very helpful.
Itamar Marani [00:37:10]:
I think it’s a great point. I do it a bit obsessively. Personally, like, I just have my work shirts in the office and I don’t wear them outside the space of the office again, unless I’m going to a conference presentation.
Jason Barnard [00:37:20]:
I do the red shirt, the green shirt and the blue shirt obsessively.
Itamar Marani [00:37:24]:
It works, man. If it works, it works.
Jason Barnard [00:37:27]:
Yeah, and it works.
Itamar Marani [00:37:29]:
Any kind of last thing, something that you wanted to bring up, something that we didn’t mention that you’re like, this was very, very helpful for me, and I’d love it for somebody else if they’re kind of struggling to really step up to their next level of success. I think if they heard this, it could help them. Anything like that in your head?
Jason Barnard [00:37:45]:
Well, I mean, it’s something you said. I think the first time we talked was, a lot of us think that the way to move forwards is to push your foot down on the accelerator, try harder, work harder, get up earlier. And, in fact, the most effective thing is to take the handbrake off. And taking the handbrake off, for me, has been identifying the emotional aspect of my decision making, removing that, putting it to one side, and simply that. I’m not working harder, I’m not pushing harder, I’m not getting up earlier, but I’m being significantly more effective.
Itamar Marani [00:38:16]:
That’s awesome, man. I want to wrap it up with kind of sharing how Jason and I first actually met. So we met at a conference we were both speaking at. Usually when I interact with other speakers, there’s always a little bit need to kind of, like, puff up everybody. Like, I’m a big deal, I’m a big deal. There’s a little bit of that. And one of the things that was very, very impressive to me about you is that, first off, you were very open. You’re okay.
Itamar Marani [00:38:47]:
This is what I do. I’m really good at it. Great. That’s clear. Now, this is also where I have a little bit of a challenge. And when I proposed something to think about, you were immediately open to it. And I think it’s a superpower that enables so much growth. And I think we had that conversation.
Itamar Marani [00:39:06]:
We were between talks, but then we actually stayed outside for another 40 minutes and just chatted about it. And I think that all the tools that we discuss here, all the strategies, whether it’s from the shirts to the understanding the cadence of the meetings, whatever it may be, none of these tools are applicable. If there isn’t that openness to say, oh, I’m hungry to get better. And I think that was such a strength of yours that you had that. And honestly, like, hats off to you, man, because it’s rare that I see it with such clear conviction that I am willing to get better, and I want to get better, and I want to put my ego aside in order for that to happen. Aside. And I’m the back seat side.
Jason Barnard [00:39:45]:
Yeah, well, I mean, I think. I mean, I really want to get better. My aim is to improve whatever I do. And when I meet somebody and understand that they’re smart and they have something to teach me. I’ll listen. I often talk a lot because I talk about what I do. As you said, I know I’m good at it. I know what I do is valuable.
Jason Barnard [00:40:08]:
I know how I do it works, and I know that I can bring value to people, but then I can also see from the other side when somebody really knows what they’re talking about can bring me value. I want to listen because I want to learn, because I want to improve.
Itamar Marani [00:40:22]:
That’s a big thing. So with that knowing, like saying that you know what you do, where can people find you if they want to reach out, if they want to connect, if they want to learn more about Kalicube?
Jason Barnard [00:40:33]:
Well, Kalicube is written. K-A-L-I-C-U-B-E. You can go to kalicube.com. our special talent is to change the way the AI search and assistive engines perceive you and how they represent you. So if you search my name, Jason Barnard, J-A-S-O-N-B-A-R-N-A-R-D, you will see a result on Google or on ChatGPT exactly the way I want it. They perceive me the way I want because I present myself in a very systematic manner. They perceive me the way I expect them to or I want them to.
Jason Barnard [00:41:08]:
And they therefore represent me exactly as I want to be represented. So if you search my name, you get the choice of where to engage with me. Come to my personal site for my personal life, Kalicube.com for business, Twitter, my articles, LinkedIn, Facebook, the Knowledge Graph conference. It’s up to you.
Itamar Marani [00:41:27]:
Yeah, we’ll have all the links in the show notes below. Jason, I want to say thank you for coming on. I appreciate it. And for the audience, I want to leave you with this. A lot of times a lot of guys, they want to go bigger and they don’t ask themselves, like, what’s going on here. The reality is, most of the time there’s an emotional part of you that you’re not aware of that is actually purposely keeping you small because it thinks it’s safe, it thinks it’s more stable. And once you can differentiate between the logical part of you and that emotional part of you and know how Jason said to put it, either to the side or to the back seat, whatever it may be, that’s when you can really start to go big. Until then, you’ll always be fighting this invisible battle, which is very hard to win.
Itamar Marani [00:42:15]:
And if that’s something, if this episode resonated with you, I invite you to explore that. Say, what is the part of me that is holding me back? And obviously, if you want my personal help to do this, you’re welcome to the play of the arena. We’ll have all the links below. Aside from that, I want to say thank you again, Jason, for coming on. Really appreciate it, man. Lots of good stuff. Thank you.
Jason Barnard [00:42:34]:
Thank you.
Itamar Marani [00:42:37]:
Thank you for listening to The Elite Performance Podcast. Please subscribe and tell a friend if you enjoyed it. One last thing before you go. If you feel like someone with your exact skill sets and abilities could be accomplishing more than you are right now, youre performing below your potential. Here are three ways I’d love to help you fix that and start achieving everything you know your capable of. One three quick ideas Tuesday newsletter. Its a weekly email with three quick ideas around one aspect of elite performance and how to approach it differently for better and faster results. People say its the most thought provoking and impactful two minutes they spend in.
Itamar Marani [00:43:09]:
Their inbox each week.
Itamar Marani [00:43:10]:
Its easy to sign up for and easy to cancel, and you can sign up @itamarmarani.com/threeideas. Number two, the extreme clarity tool to uncover the number one action to grow your business that most entrepreneurs avoid. It’s an intense two minute exercise to help you clarify the biggest needle mover in your business. And it has nothing to do with relying on discipline, motivation, or any biohacking bullshit.
Itamar Marani [00:43:32]:
And it’s completely free.
Itamar Marani [00:43:33]:
See it, use it and win, and you can gain access to it at itamarmarani.com/clarity. And number three. Lastly, the arena performed etcetera might be for you if you’re tired of feeling stuck and are ready to level up. Its a premium program with a premium price and 100% money back guarantee to back it up. The arena is not a six week discipline bootcamp. Its where you change the trajectory of your life and business. So expect a six week intense sprint where youll unlock your full potential by uncovering what you didnt even know was holding you back and remove it for good. Its an interactive live program and but you’ll work directly with me to get clarity on what you want.
Itamar Marani [00:44:09]:
Forge a mindset that’s wired for winning and create a rock solid mental and emotional core that will allow you to not just hit your short term goals, but accomplish everything that you’ve been struggling to get done. Over 106 to nine figure entrepreneurs have gone through it, gotten results that last for years, and left rave reviews. The first step is to fill out a three minute application form at itamarmarani.com/apply from there I’ll help you uncover what’s keeping you stuck and how to overcome it. Then you can either do it yourself or work together. Whatever is a bigger win for you, go to itamarmarani.com/apply. You can find these links in the show notes below, or visit itamarmirani.com to look around until next time.
Itamar Marani [00:44:48]:
Who dares wins?
